Ultimate Regeneration?

[Corrupt]

Alright,

So, a Guyvers regeneration is fantastic and what not, being able to regrow from a single cell as long as the Control Medal is intact, yadda yadda.

While I personally think it would be cool to have a Unit-G, i'm not too keen on the danger and death rate that plagues the hosts and its owners.

While you may say, "Well, Guyvers can regenerate like mad!" Bah. YOU are dead. What lives is a CLONE. That bugs me. I have no combat training, so i'd go down after like three days, a week at best. Not enough time to really have some fun with the new found power, and basically all the CM does when preserving the host is "download" memories to later plant in a clone body.

What is the purpose of this thread? Well, I present a question. Two actually.

1: Would you still choose to bond with a Unit-G even though you may die and be replaced with a clone later on through your adventure?

2: Do you think perhaps maybe the CM acts more than just a hub for DNA data and memory storage, and actually keeps a portion of "you" in it? In this case, the CM becomes more of an extension of your brain and your spritual essence.

If neither question really fits your answer, tell me what you think. Do you think there's more to the regeneration beyond cloning the host? Do you believe there is another way the CM preserves the essence of the host?

Any comments, suggestion, and thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks.

P.S.: Apologies for any confusions within the post, it's late and must now sleep!

[largo]

Isn't that the same arguement that sho makes in the new series on the stairs at chronos japan. While you and sho may have a problem with it I don't. Because in reality you as an individual can't tell the difference between your orginal body and the new clone body. As for the notion that the CM contains a portion of "you" that would imply that you believe in the soul. I personally believe that the soul is really just your memories and the experces that shap who I am as an individual. So no I wouldn't have a problem with being a guyver.

[Tyranthrax]

Yeah, I wouldn't really care about that. I mean, Sho still seemed to be Sho. And while yes, your memories would essentially be downloaded into a 'clone' body, remember that that body was made from one of your original cells. For all intents and purposes, that is your body. The only difference between it and the one you had before is, this one's still alive.

So, I myself, wouldn't care. If I had the chance to become a Guyver, I would, with no regrets. Especially if I also had access to a Gigantes Cocoon.

[largo]

Yah exactly, but if you're willing to stay in a little... I mean big coccon for like a year. Oh lets not forget the near death experece of being in a relic as it goes boom! So cool but yah having a guyver would rock.

[Tyranthrax]

What I'd meant in my post was, if there was already a Gigantes Cocoon ready for use, then it would be all the more reason for me to want to be a Guyver. Hell, even then, I wouldn't care if I had to spend most of a year in some chrysalis. Look at the power of the Gigantic! Screw the Relic, I want the Giant Bio-Boost...

[largo]

In that case why not w'kar units?

[*zeo]

W'Kar is not a Guyver Unit. What happens to the host is very different.

As for the clone thing, no a clone is a copy that is seperate from the original and is not an exact copy.

The unit regenerates the host from the original cells. And the CM is an extension of the host mind, that is how it preserves the memories and details of the host.

Btw, your whole body replaces its cells every couple of years, eventually replacing every cell in your body as old ones dye off.

So fact is if you live long enough you already have a different body than you were born with.

The only possible exception is the brain but even that has shown to have some new cells developed over time, meaning old cells get replaced.

[thanosfan82586]

On one hand, every cell in your body contains the entire genetic code needed to make you. So I think its still you. If it doesn't really count as "you," then it won't really matter since the duplicate is so close that it would pass any personalized Turing test. If that is the case, then said duplicate would also worry that they are not the original which would lead to a lot of unnecessary grief or self-doubt. Either way, they would behave as the original would so in the end they might as well go on as the original.

Something similar is discussed in the book The Singularity is Near by Ray Kurzweil, but in the context of an uploaded mind. Ray believes that a human is a pattern of information. Everything in your body is replaced eventually, including the molecules within your neurons, yet the pattern still persists.

[Twilight-Guyver]

I agree with the masses. Having a guyver would be aweseom even with the chance of death looming over head. Lisker said it himself a guyver is veritably immortal. Just becasue you die and are regenerated from the smallest cell left on the cm doesn't mean you are a false you or a clone. You are you plain and simple.

[largo]

Bows in respect and fear of the knowledge of the all knowing Zeo1234. All hale Zeo. But the ability of the human brain to regenerate is almost oh so nonexsistant. The most we can heal from damage to the brain is like almost next to nothing right? But since the guyver has the ability to repair such damage it truely would make a person almost immortal. As the cm being damaged the only real way you could die at that point. Also this maybe alittle off topic but the W'kar's ability to maintain the host's consciousness dispite the fact that the brain has be destroyed. I think that, that should still be possible with a normal guyver as well, and hear me out on this. Zeo you said that the cm pretty much makes a back up of the host memories and personality ect., ect. So couldn't it in fact act as a back up brain? But these are just the thoughts of a crazy who still believes that if he's given 10 billion he could make a Gundam or at the very least an MS.

[*zeo]

We don't know the extent of the human brain to regenerate. For example, people shot in the head for example, some die, some have brain damage, and some appear to be perfectly fine despite having a hole in their head.

We've had people who were technically brain dead make full recoveries as their brain either regenerated or rewired itself to work around the damage.

Simply put we don't know the limitations of the human brain yet.

But remember our brains are ever changing. Your personality can change drastically throughout your life. Brain damage not withstanding

Really though, our memories can come and go and even change over time.

In the end we are but patterns of information and information can be stored.

Even the so called matter we are made up of is but patterns of energy and our sense of solidness is actually an illusion of interacting energy fields.

As for the W'Kar, it is a completely different life form from the Guyvers.

The CM may be able to store the information of the host but that is not the same as being able to process that information in real time.

Just like our DNA, our DNA doesn't literally run our body directly but rather the information it contains has to be uncompressed before it can be used.

This happens as our bodies convert the information contained in our DNA into RNA.

In comparison to computers you can look at it like the relationship between the hard drive and the ram. DNA needs to be decoded into RNA before the information becomes active and vice versa.

The CM is the ultimate storage device but it still needs the host body to properly function.

Proof of this is when G1's brain was ripped out and the unit killed his father. If his consciousness was still accessable that would never have happened.

Though for fan fiction Guyvers you could always have a super CM capable of acting like a backup brain.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

1: Would you still choose to bond with a Unit-G even though you may die and be replaced with a clone later on through your adventure?

2: Do you think perhaps maybe the CM acts more than just a hub for DNA data and memory storage, and actually keeps a portion of "you" in it? In this case, the CM becomes more of an extension of your brain and your spritual essence.

1: Heck ya! Granted, your body may not be the same one as before, but with it being "rebuilt" even though it's a clone, it would theoretically be better sine the Unit is rebuilding the body to be better fit for the Unit, if it hasn't all ready done that during the initial bonding. But, as long as the CM ain't broken, ya, I'll go for it. End up kind of like a purely organic RoboCop. In seriousness, yeah. Life needs a bit of chili pepper once in a while, else it gets REALLY dull.

2. This gets into the whole idea souls, higher planes, higher beings, etc. I would say that as long as your DNA still resides somewhere on the unit and it can e regenerated, than it would mean that your original personality retains the same. So, as long as there is no tampering of the medal, there is not tampering of the personality. Really, the personality is sort of the result of all of your life experiences and your particular reactions to them, good or bad. So, this is a bit dicey.

But, the idea of a clone isn't new, and really, as long as a part of you survives (doesn't matter which part), then you'll remain the same.

[Sully]

Here's a question for you though. When "you" go to sleep at night and you're mind shuts off. Is it really "you" that wakes up the next morning?

[Twilight-Guyver]

Hmm, that is a good questions. As far as I go, I say you are still the same you as you were before .the soul is just something that people want to believe in. I mean if you go by guyver standards we are no more than biological machines with one purpose, but due to lack of control we drove away from it but still had the instincts for the core mission we were intended to complete.

In essence we are who we are no matter what the action taken. Be we dead and revived through the unit or when we wake up in the morning.

[largo]

Man talking about things like if you die and any other related things just sends a chill up my spine I like to think that I'm never going to die because cyberization will be prefected by the time I'm in my mid to late 50's. So Lalalalalalla can't hear you. But I don't think that every time you sleep another you awakens because if that were the case what happens to all of the old you's? Wait that didn't make sense what I'm trying to say is that the brain doesn't really shut down when you sleep it goes in to a hibernation type state then when you wake up everything returns to how it was. It's kind of like your computer when you have a screen saver active. I guess that's what I'm saying.

[*zeo]

Your brain is always cycling parts of itself on and off, which is why we never use much more than about 10% of our brains at any one time.

When you sleep parts of your brain does shut down.

For example the part of the brain responsible of reading stays off when you sleep which is why you can never read anything in your dreams. Words in dreams just appear as gibberish.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

But, when you go to sleep, and wake up, isn't it like turning your computer on and off or on standby? I mean, it's not exactly like it, but when you sleep, most of the "non-vital" functions, ie sensory, thought patterns, "awareness" and the like are "turned off" so to speak. I mean, when you turn your computer on and off, it's still the same for the most part.

As Twilight stated, we are who we are, and there is very little, if anything will change that. Our instincts are far too ingrained into us to do otherwise.

But, also even though we cycle it throughout the day, there are certain functions that stay active as long as we are awake. Like concious thought. The cycling also may explain some of the mindwandering during the day, particularly when you're not doing too much.

[*zeo]

Actually yes and no, our brains stay pretty much the same for most of our lives but our brains also never maintain the same configuration at any point in time.

It would be like a computer constantly rewiring itself each time you turned it on. Or booting a different OS every couple of seconds.

Even our memories can be altered over time.

Remember our brains are basically an organic chemical soup that evolution has helped forge into what we call a brain but is still at its roots a chemical soup.

People who have been brain damaged for example have at times shown the brain can rewire itself when necessary. Different parts of the brain can take over for the damaged parts, etc.

Or like Autistic people, people can perceive things differently.

Even for so called normal people the colors we see are not the same from person to person. Which basically means everyone can see a color, call it by the same name but in reality every person sees a different color.

We like to think our consciousness is something that is as real as the gray matter that makes up our brains.

But even our sense of self and consciousness varies from moment to moment. Whether we're aware of it or not.

For example when we are solving problems and similar instensive tasks, our brain compartmentalizes and what we describe as consciousness starts to break down as our brains put more and more energy into solving a problem.

Basically our consciousness is a little understood result of different parts of our brain working together at the same time but this is not always the norm and many times we don't even notice when our consciousness shuts off.

Sometimes this is done on purpose, like a martial artist training themselves to react without thinking. But other times it's the norm response of our brains dealing with certain situations or just to conserve energy when full conscious isn't required or to deal with stress.

Like when we experience something shocking our brain actually shuts off for a few seconds to deal with the shock.

Even looking at something shocking can cause the visual cortex to not respond for about 3 seconds, in other words you would be technically blind for that period of time, which means it's not a good idea to look at something shocking while driving

Of course our brains also follows patterns, primitive instincts, etc. Which define our personalities.

But it should be realized these personalities are only aspects of our consciousness and not the whole of what we are.

Consider for example our personalities change as rapidly as our emotions.

Everything is relative.

Even though we do have instincts and such, as humans we are capable of over coming them if we so desire.

And our brains don't control everything, like the ability to walk, etc is actually controlled by nerve clusters in our spin. Our brain just tells the body where to go.

So there are many aspects of our brain to consider.

But for the moment, whether you'll still be you if regenerated/cloned is presently a matter of philosophy more than science as it depends on what you consider you and whether that actually applies.

Like whether as some have suggested we are ghost in the machine.

Hmm, okay, thinking too much. This basically breaks down to whether you think you have a soul or not and whether that will carry over into a new body or not.

The difference between consciousness and the brain is comparable to the difference between software and hardware. One can't exist without the other but is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

JEEZ! What are you, a psychologist, or a neurologist? That was...longwinded. Um, okay, I'll take your word for it.

But, my point was, the same general functions remain constant. So, even if you do "die" wouldn't the thought processes, memories and the like be stored somewhere? I mean, wouldn't the CM have to have a copy of everything about you since you are bonding to the Unit? There would have to be an exchange of information right? I mean the host might unknowingly get information on the different weapons and functions, and the medal would get the host's DNA, thought processes, memories and like like, right? Wouldn't there have to be the information inside to make a complete clone? Or would when you get regenerated, you'd have to relearn everything? To say that it doesn't contain a copy of everything about you, but you still properly function means that either a) there is another part of us that we can't see, or more theoretically likely b) there's another device somewhere within that makes a copy. But that still presents problems, doesn't it? It's confusing.

[*zeo]

JEEZ! What are you, a psychologist, or a neurologist?

No, but I did stay at the Holiday Inn last night

Really though, you should read actual papers on the brain. If you think I'm long winded

Anyway, what we know is this.

The CM keeps a general backup of the host which includes memories.

The CM does keep a copy of host DNA as well but regeneration has always been from remaining cells left on the CM tendril wires.

Which means the CM has never done it from scratch. There was always a starting mass of at least a few cells.

Whether you consider the host fully regenerated or a clone is up to your opinion of what makes you - you!

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

In other words, we just went in one really big circle, didn't we?

Yeah, but I was also talking in the CM's equivelant of binary storage, not just the physical regeneration.

But, so long as there is some form of DNA left, then you'll 'remember?'

[OverLord Supreme Guyver(O]

Hey Guys i just like to Say i'm back.....been a while hey Zeo i see you still here debating and such. Hope we can still debate like we use too .

By the way what happen to all the old threads i was looking for them where i posted and they are all gone.

On this topic I would just like to add that what we perceive as human conscious can be routed back to the language center of the human brain. More than likely if someone were to destroy or damage the left hemisphere of your brain; your human consciousness would be severely damaged or completely eliminated.

[*zeo]

Unfortunately we lost much of the old topics when we were hit by a series of hacker attacks over a year ago now that nearly perminently destroyed the message board.

Fortunately I stopped it once I figured out they were just amature hackers that were using pre-programmed hacks made for standard php board setups.

So some small changes to file arrangement prevented any further hacks.

Anyway, Thunder Demon, I wouldn't say we went in one big circle cause now everyone has a better understanding of what is known about the human brain.

But yes, it still comes down to what we perceive to be what makes us, us.

Though damage to the language centers would not eliminate our sense of consciousness.

People have had damage to that area and still function at some level.

Also there have been people who have had both hemispheres seperated and still function, albiet like they have two brains for each side of their body.

But essentially consciousness is a virtual construct generated from our brain. Much like software running on a computer, in a sense we're more than just the sum of our parts.

As for memories, there are theories of genetic memory but we don't know how far they extend.

Unlike some species which are born with everything they would ever need to know. Humans have to learn much during our lifetimes for each generation.

Though basic stuff like walking, breathing, etc are stuff we have confirmed we are born with knowledge of.

Genetic memory could explain deja vu, etc.

And it could be well possible the CM stores host memories this way as well.

Or as some have suggested the CM somehow stores the consciousness of the host until the brain is regenerated.

[OverLord Supreme Guyver(O]

Unfortunately we lost much of the old topics when we were hit by a series of hacker attacks over a year ago now that nearly perminently destroyed the message board.

Fortunately I stopped it once I figured out they were just amature hackers that were using pre-programmed hacks made for standard php board setups.

So some small changes to file arrangement prevented any further hacks.

Anyway, Thunder Demon, I wouldn't say we went in one big circle cause now everyone has a better understanding of what is known about the human brain.

But yes, it still comes down to what we perceive to be what makes us, us.

Though damage to the language centers would not eliminate our sense of consciousness.

People have had damage to that area and still function at some level.

Also there have been people who have had both hemispheres seperated and still function, albiet like they have two brains for each side of their body.

But essentially consciousness is a virtual construct generated from our brain. Much like software running on a computer, in a sense we're more than just the sum of our parts.

As for memories, there are theories of genetic memory but we don't know how far they extend.

Unlike some species which are born with everything they would ever need to know. Humans have to learn much during our lifetimes for each generation.

Though basic stuff like walking, breathing, etc are stuff we have confirmed we are born with knowledge of.

Genetic memory could explain deja vu, etc.

And it could be well possible the CM stores host memories this way as well.

Or as some have suggested the CM somehow stores the consciousness of the host until the brain is regenerated.

"Consciousness means the possibility of reporting one’s experience and of co-operating with other people. Consciousness is common knowledge; when being conscious I can share my experiences with other people, and be convinced that the others understand what I say. In fact, even the word consciousness has its origin in Latin words “con” and “scire”, the former one having the meaning of “together” and the latter one “to know”, it is: to know together. However, if consciousness was only individually present and a private faculty, how might then the sharing of experience and common knowledge be possible"

As for sperated hemisphere, most corpus callosotomy patients in a sense do have two minds due the lack of data tranfer between both hemispheres. However they are still able to communicate their feelings and thoughts with others. Babies are hard wired for speech and it may come as no surprise why child, who are for all intincive perposeis "normal", can pick up a language or languages easy. However until a child can understand and precieve itself as being consicense through the sharing of information via language with others; it is no surprise that most humans cannot remember past 3-4 years of age.

As for the CM I believe that it stores or maps all LONG TERM by recording all host neural connections from long-term potentiation (LTP) or as I Have dubbed it LTP mapping. LTP mapping is the CM recording the chemical strength of all the neural synapses in the brain, which occur when a memory is stored long term. It also updates or records new ones each bio boosting. The fact that a Guyver host has a hard time remembering their own death or whenever they suffer damage to the brain means that the CM has a difficult time storing short term memory.

As for wanted a G-unit i would only want the one i dreamed up in my fan fic(when i'm done i'll post it; i did a Lucas and wrote it from the end to begining ). However a point you guys forgot was with a G unit come all the bad stuff like chronos and them killing your family or friends or making you kill them. If i would have to endure such pain i in order to get a Guyver unit i say no. However if there was a Chronos i this world and i had to fight i would say yes.

[*zeo]

I disagree, Consciousness does not mean the possibility of reporting one’s experience and of co-operating with other people.

It helps but it's not something that is absolutely needed to acheive consciousness.

A person can be completely cut off from all means of communicating and still be conscious. Such as paralyzed patients who can't even blink on their own.

A person just needs a fully functional brain.

Consciousness is the ability to be self aware and to reason.

A blind, deaf, and mute person still has the ability to be conscious.

Communication helps but consciousness is not limited to just communication, it is also experience, whether that experience is shared or not.

Rather consciousness requires the working together of different parts of the brain to generate what we call consciousness.

Don't confuse individual consciousness with community and/or empathy. As that is a different type of consciousness from what we are refering to with the Guyver CM.

Another problem is the Guyver host remembers everything up to the moment of death, such as Sho getting his brain ripped out. So it's not limited to LONG TERM recording, every moment is restored.

Sho did not have difficulty remembering his death, he had trouble remembering the fact he killed his own father in order to survive. Which was a psychological problem which had nothing to do with the CM.

He was just in shock and didn't want to remember.

As for wanting a G-Unit, we didn't forget Chronos. It was just a question if becoming a Guyver was good idea to begin with, since by some philosphy it would mean the original you dies depending on how you view what the unit does.

Like the debate on Quantum Teleporting, which suffers a similar problem.

Let alone the other consequences that go along with being a Guyver.