The Warrior Guyver

[*zeo]

The Chronicle re-write of Union is nearly complete. . . With all the changes you may have noted for the characters so far in Chronicles and the acknowledgement that power scales will be adjusted in Chronicles to take into account the official translated abilities of the Gigantic Guyver. Then what do you think would be done to the Warrior Guyver?

Feel free to speculate about the WG2 unit as well.

[jedi-guyver]

Well seeing as the gigantic is a fluke I don't see how the creators would have thought that a warrior type guyver would need to be more powerful than it is right now. In my opinion we should keep the stats mostly the same but lower /raise the shielding, either up to a 50 kiloton attack or what we had orginally thought as a 1 kiloton attack. Just because the gigantic is rated at 20x the stength doesnt mean that it would wipe the floor with a warrior guyver were we have it rite now.

[*zeo]

But the Guyver itself was a fluke jedi-guyver. The idea behind the Warrior Guyver was that the Creators took that fluke and tried to see just how powerful they could make it. So even though the Creators did not know about the Gigantic, they did know about the Guyver effect which the Gigantic is also based on.

So in its original conception the Warrior Guyver's abilities were patterned after the Gigantic in that the Gigantic is also an enhancement of the Guyver effect but being a fluke that it may not tap the full potential as the Warrior Unit would have been designed to do. Essentially the Warrior Guyver was to show the full potential of a human hosted Guyver.

Btw, the translation only say 20x power for the Gigantic which we interpret as meaning just power and not physical strength. After all the head beam is stated as only being 5x with the two side orbs being 1x, while the Smashers are 100x. Given analysis of other characters and general muscle power of Guyvers and Zoalords that the Gigantic should only have about 5x strength which is equivalent to its size/mass increase. The 20x then only applies to the abilities like the power punch and shields, and possibly the pressure Cannon and is most probably a result of the 12 power amp crystals and the three gravity control orbs.

Also note our original estimate of how powerful the normal smashers are have been raised from 500 tons of TNT to 10,000 tons of TNT due to recalculations of how much energy it would take to vaporize a large number of zoanoids in a 1 second blast of energy.

Our original estimate was based on how much energy it would take to destroy a skyscraper and turn it to rubble.

This make the Gigantic Smashers approximately capable of unleashing a 1 Megaton blast of energy. But this brings us to the main problem with the original WG design and the main reason I posted this topic.

The WG smashers were suppose to be equivalent to the Gigantics, but we now know the Gigantic Smashers are 100x instead of just 2x. So an adjustment would be required for both the Smashers and the Shields.

Also consider that like the Gigantic the WG's abilities may not all be of equal power levels and in Chronicles everything will follow as realistic a scenario as we could come up with.

So given that the WG unit is suppose to push the limits of the Guyver effect, and given our new understanding of what is possible via the official translated abilities of the Gigantic, then what do you think the Warrior Units should be capable of given that they were designed to be weapons while the original G-Units were more or less an accidental result?

[jedi-guyver]

I know that the problem is that if we raise the power-levels any higher all of the others are going to become ridiculusly high, but you already knew that which is why we have this topic.

I really can't think of anything other than we should keep the head beam, and other abilities unique to the warrior guyver the same like the gravity shield and secondary control metal shield.

The only ones that need to be changed are the mega smashers, pressure cannon, and the sonic busters

One question though did we ever get a speed stat on the gigantic?

[*zeo]

Unfortunately no, we still have no official translation to give us an idea how fast the Gigantic actually is. Though aside from speed boosts from the back thrusters we have never seen the Gigantic break the sound barrier. This however does not mean it is not capable of going that fast and with three gravity control orbs it is likely that it should be at least capable of mach 1.

If anyone knows how long it took GG3 to get back to base after stealing that crate of supplies from Chronos then maybe we can do an estimate on its average flight speed since we can look up the general distance between those two locations?

[McAvoy]

Generally I'd say between 4x to 6x for the new Warrior Guyver estimates. Maybe with the Warrior Guyver's mega smashers being 4x as well, and the blast shield could be capable of withstanding a 4x mega smasher.

Personally, though you start raising the power levels for Warrior Guyver, the other characters like Nova Guyver would have to be raised or altered to make everything fit.

For instance, if we maintain that the Warrior Guyver will always be doubled the power of a Gigantic. Then that would mean WG will be a 10x character, and WG2 might be capable of 20x depending if we still go with the CPM equals one WG level boost. Then Black Nova would have to be a 25x character, and Dark Nova could be 40x as well.

Then of course if WG2 can boost his power to 20x, then of course in he wouldn't be all that bad in the Meeting crossover fic.

So in conclusion? Keeping the Warrior Guyver the way he is now would be better and just say that Gigantic is a truly powerful unit as well.

[Vengeance]

I agree with McAvoy. I understand that with the new information on the Gigantic Unit it really does through the whole system through a loop. Like he said if we follow exactly how the magna and anime goes then everyone is going to have to be more powerful, more destructive and in then end i fear we're going to end up with a DBZ situation where we have forty people running around all of them with units so powerful if they arent careful the Earth is gonna end up nothing then debris. Do we really wanna start boosting everything in order to match what the new datafile says? Things seemed to work very well previously before this new information came out. Certainly something's can be changed like making the Gigantic physically stronger but should his mega smasher really be 100 times the strength of a standard unit? At powers like that it rivals the destructive power of Dreadnought's own current hyper smashers.

Dreadnought's mega smashers are currently 25 times the strength of a gigantic guyvers. Originally that meant 50x a standard guyver. He could of course boost it to 60x a Gigantic's but that was based on power boosting and channeling of his power wave attack.

Based of this current Dreadnought only manages to surpass the 100x of Gigantic Guyver's Hypersmashers by pushing himself to the max with his attack. Think about it, do we really wanna push these characters and their powers so incredibly far that no fights can occur on Earth anymore for fear of destroying it? I think the new fics are amazing and some of the best writing of ever seen, I'm just worried that if we start pushing everything its going to start losing out, but that is just my opinion i could be wrong.

[largo]

I agree with Veng if we up everyones power to match the new stats it really would be like DBZ with Goku being so powerful that no one could ever stand a chance of beating him.

Also consider the civillian populas the death rates of civies are already way to high as it is. With the WGC burte force or was it front line I can't remember which but one of the biggest canadian cities is wiped of the face of the earth. If people get any stronger we won't have to worry about the creators destroying the earth will end up doing it for them. And that doesn't sound to bright to me.

[*zeo]

Power great or small all depends on how it is used.

Everyone seems to be concentrating on the power aspect but none of you are thinking on how it can be used or whether there is some balance we could achieve.

Yes the Gigantic has great power but it also has limits and is not all powerful.

Remember the Gigantic is an official character of the Manga and despite its high power level it has done relatively little damage to the planet. Even the battle with Imakirum did less damage than a nuke would have done.

Common, surely there is someone who can be more creative than this?

[McAvoy]

Well there is nothing wrong with having the Gigantic having 100x smashers, and others havinh something lesser. Besides, here's a good question. We're so keen on looking at a straight 100x power difference. Maybe the 100x is included in a wider range. For instance, we can say the Gigantic is actually 50x in brute power, but has twice the range or twice the width of the beam. Just an idea.

Personally, the way the Warrior Guyver is originally should be fine. I mean a 4x character vs. the 5x Gigantic should make things interesting when you think about it. The Gigantic could have the brute strength, but the Warrior Guyver could have the speed and the stamina. Afterall, a speedy character with alot of stamina would win over a stronger opponent. Look at Ali's fight with Foreman. Ali won through having better stamina and was fast. Foreman looked like was going to win because he was hitting Ali so much with hard punches, but when he got tired, Ali came through and knocked out Foreman.

Personally the ratios between smashers and the shields should be about the same.

[Weltall2]

Yeah, it may seem like things could be DBZish however that is only if you do not throw W'kar into the picture, and also even though you if you are3 the strongest, strenght doesn't nessasarilly garrenty victory, Take the soviet union for example they may have had weapons with more raw power (not nukes be serious,) but they never invaded. One reason was stealth technology. So even if your opponent has a strenth advantage, if you can manage to get behind their forces and cut off their supply lines they are helpless. The same thing applies here if you issolate an enemy from his allies you can overwhelm and sudue them. Also remember the Ark dreadnought even with his power had to teleport away from the path of the beam they shot at him in his fight with Crystalite.

[Thunder Demon1472669266]

You're right, raw power doesn't guarantee victory. Even a hyena, given the prowess, can take down a lion. Victory lies in how you use your force. Even a relatively weak opponent can knock out the bigger guy, if he's smarter and faster than the other guy. Remember also that both a defeated man and a man running away have something in common: they both may have a plan.

But it's good that the re-writes are nearing completion. Things are looking up for the new year, ne? Anyway, whether it becomes comparable or not is not of interest to me, but to return to the topic, given from what has been portrayed, I imagine that the work will probably be darker, I'm stabbing at the dark here. He may be stronger, but if so, I doubt but a significant amount as even a small increase in his base form will have drastic consequences later on with the Matrix and as Dreadnaught. Perhaps events would be twisted in someway? Again, stabbing at the dark, but given what has been said in the past and wat I know of rewrites, this sometimes is the case. BTW, by 'darker' I mean more, uh sinister maybe? It's hard to explain. I guess the way I should say it is that it would become something you wouldn't want to read to a child? I know that that is all ready the case, but even more so than the old.

[*zeo]

Uh, yeah, better slap an old rated R on the site rating

Anyway, anyone else want to take a stab at this problem?

[McAvoy]

Well, here's something to consider. If we go by what we know will happen in the Chronicles, then remember that Agito got the WG2 unit. This is before he was even aware of the Zeus upgrade. Naturally, he was looking at the WG2 unit as a upgrade over even the Gigantic. I mean even with the 5x Gigantic vs. WG2's 8x level of strength, it would be a hard sell.

[*zeo]

Well there is also the unlimited stamina and virtual unkillability going for the WG2 unit. Besides which it wasn't like he was completely giving up his old unit after all.

[Vengeance]

As far as the new WG and WG 2 for Chronicles i got just a few opinions.

Warrior Guyver

Strength Somewhat less then Gigantic Guyver

Speed: Faster

Weapons: more powerful

Mega Smasher: Same as Gigantic's but able to fire faster, longer and more frequently.

Stamina: Greater

Durability: Greater when shields are fully powered. I think armor and body shield should provide somewhat greater durability but not just completely out of the park.

I think this would be a good match up. Since the Gigantic Guyver was merely a fluke it might have a tremendous amount of raw power at its beck and call. However the Warrior Guyver should be a more focused form of that tremendous power, given that the unit was designed to be a Warrior its level and abilities should reflect that. Think of it like comparing a body builder to a special forces soldier. The body builder is big and powerful and can do quite a bit of damage, but the soldier is trained for battle and in a combat situation would do much better and be more dangerous then someone not trained for the situation.

Warrior Guyver 2

Same stats as the Warrior Guyver, however the CPM makes it capable of boosting the character to higher levels temporarily. I think the CPM should have more emphasis on its abilities as a weapon then its power to boost the physical stats. In all honesty it wasnt Jason's physical stats that helped him beat the GZ, it was his superior weapons system and I think both units should help refelct that even if they have different weapons systems.

Well there ya have it folks, but that's just my opinion but what do I know?

[*zeo]

Well there ya have it folks, but that's just my opinion but what do I know?

(He knows too much . . . searches computer for spyware)

Confession, like many things done for the fic the new power levels have already been figured out for Chronicles. I was just curious to see if anyone could come up with a similar solution to what we came up with and Vengeance you came very close. I'm impressed.

Note though it wasn't exact but I gotta leave you guys some surprises for Chronicles.

[Weltall2]

Well, now that we are talking power and not strategy. I have a question, will there still be a Draednought? I think there should be especially since Dreadnought appears so close to meetings where he faces beings like W'Kar. Also I agree with the sentiments that people are focusing too much on power levels as those can be adjusted. However many here seem to have forgoten that this fic series has always revolved around startegy and not power itself. Remember there is an all out war going on the Earth. And in war four main things are required to win it, superior weapons, Greater Manpower, more resources than your enemy, and outsmarting the enemy(a.k.a. Better Strategy.)

[*zeo]

Dreadnought. . . Well what can I say

Seriously though, yes the fic will still center more on strategy. Not that we're going to play chess or anything but we definitely plan on making everything very interesting. So even if you read the fic before or in spite of it I think you should find what we do in Chronicles a very good and refreshing read.

[McAvoy]

Are you actually going to make WG's mega smashers as powerful as a Gigantics? Do you mean the 2x version or the 100x version?

I mean granted, the Warrior Guyver was originally supposed to be more powerful than a Gigantic, but since doing that would like some has said above make everyone DBZ like. I'm going more for the original stats (slightly modified) because it fits just as well as before. I mean the WG is not a Gigantic class, but in the same class as a standard.

Dreadnought on the other hand, is a Gigantic and should fit what we expect from a Gigantic.

[Vengeance]

I'm not sure how they meant it but in my refrence I believe the new mega smashers for WG should match the new hyper smashers for the Gigantic. I am one of those who is concerned about the fic becoming to DBZ like yet as it was stated before and as is evident in the manga that even at 100x the hyper smashers still do not do tremendous amounts of damage and dont seem to be a threat to the earth. I believe that the changes to the fic should involve an improvement of the lower level units such as standard guyvers, gigantics, warrior guyvers, nova guyvers, etc etc with some changes to the more powerful ones like Dreadnought, Zeus, Tonnin, Dark Nova, etc etc. Despite the tremendous power of the mega smashers Dreadnought would still be strong enough to defeat a Gigantic Guyver. All in all I think it will force the more powerful guyvers to fight smarter, if your mega smashers can tear huge chunks from the earth you would only want to use it as a last resort. Fights would require more stragety and it would mean that people who have to learn the art of combat, a two bit smuck who relies on opening a chest plate to defeat his opponents would be more harm then help when it comes to higher level characters.

[*zeo]

Are you actually going to make WG's mega smashers as powerful as a Gigantics? Do you mean the 2x version or the 100x version?

Not exactly, I did say he was only very close to the arrangement we're planning on. There are differences to what Vengeance suggested and what we're actually going to do.

[McAvoy]

Well keep in mind that if we go by the linear power chart f the old WG stats. Then it would be:

Standards: 100 men, 10 kiloton mega smasher

Gigantics: 500 men, 1 megaton giga smasher

Warrior Guyver: 1,000 men, 1 megaton mega smasher

Warrior Guyver 2: 1,000 to 2,000 men, 1 to 2 megatons mega smasher

Matrix Warrior Guyver: 2,500 men, 5 to 10 megatons quantum smashers

Dreadnought: 6,250 to 10,000 men, 25 to 60 megaton qunatum smashers, Tsumani Wave would be in the gigatons, and the Matrix Bomb would be in the high teratons.

Like I said, I prefer the Gigantics being the brute power, and the Warrior Guyver being the speed and stamina.

Though here would be a good question. If you notice, there's a ratio between the power levels of each Guyver weapon. For instance, a 100x laser equals a pressure cannon, and 100x pressure cannon equals a full double mega smasher. 10,000x head laser of course would more or less equal a mega smasher. So with the increase in power of the mega smashers, would it make sense to increase the power of the weapons as well?

[*zeo]

Yes, but the the power chart won't be linear to the old chart of the WG stats.

Trust me, you're going to like what we have planned.

[McAvoy]

That was only an example.

It would to like some people put it, DBZish to have powers. Not only that, the standards would be far, far weaker than they already are.