Jukai

Hohum. Anyway, the imaginated image wasn't from Alchanphel as you're trying to infer in your post, but from Imurakami. Imurakami saw the asteroid from the images in Alchanphel's mind and thought about what it would look like. It's entirely possible that, because he was in Alchanphel's mind, he WAS able to properly size the asteroid up through alchanphel's incredible senses, while simultaneously knowing the actual size of earth as viewed from that vantage point in space. If this was the case, you'd be right, and it is between Mars and Mercury sized. Since I don't personally believe either of those facts, I'm guessing not. edit: Maybe that is the correct measurements though, now that I look at the chapter again. We probably aren't seeing anything on ANYONE'S eyes, because we see Alchanphel clearly, and Murakami is suppose to be seeing this images out of Alchanphel's images. This probably means we're seeing things in third person, and it's also probably that was just us looking in third person at the possible collision of earth and the asteroid. Still a pointless and impossible to prove debate though.

hahahah so much for being the bigger man and letting me have the last word, huh? You couldn't do it couldya. Nah, I think you take things too literally and our arguments would sorta be going back and forth. If others could see and weigh in, it's one thing, but if we did it outselves, it'd be a bit boring. Might as well just lock it.

Actually, since you mentioned it, I am a bit more sure that the Zoalords were processed with this power, they just need the Zoacrystal as an energy source, or to regulate that energy. Aptom/Zx-Tol have a weaker version of the shield, and Aptom can't use it unless he's absorbed a lot of Zoanoids, and Zx-Tol was going to die incredibly soon after his battle with the Guyvers... so clearly the power takes a toll on regular Zoanoids. Maybe Aptom would be able to use his powers if he had absorbed enough Zoanoids. edit: can aptom absorb a regular, unprocessed human?

Actually, I'm not so sure.... Does the Zoalord need a zoacrystal to use telepathic commands and their barriors...? Or do they just need the Zoacrystal to regulate their energy so that the powers don't take tolls on their bodies? If this is the case... if aptom does absorb a Zoalord without a crystal, would his life suddenly be in danger if he began using that power/

Whoa! So you're saying... scientists figured out how the planets were with their imagination? Holy crap!!! So if I imagine uranos to be the BIGGEST PLANET IN THE UNIVERSE it will exist!!!! I'd go into detail about, for Imurakami to make a decent scientific estimation of the size of the asteroid, he'd need to know the proper size of earth viewed from space (which he probably doesn't), the size of the asteroid from the same view of space (which he definitely doesn't), and have the sense to imagine it properly and not be like "OMG GIANT ASTEROID I BET IT'D LOOK LIKE THIS!" But I think Ryuki already said it, in much bigger words than I did Zeo would shatter me in like, every single arguement if he didn't have to be right about EVERYTHING and in turn, he makes really silly and absurd statements that put him in trouble. edit: I mean... really... why would someone SAY thatabove quote? That's just not smart.

Actually my last word is that debates are never really friendly and arguing with Zeo has had me think of a 1000 different scenarios for Guyver, and I'd hope Zeo thinks the same. Probably not, but I can hope. Also, I hope Phantom turns a blind eye and lets this continue! And ecyosystem according to every online dictionary on the internet means the enviroment and the creatures in it, and saying that if the Advent only changed on thing and didn't effect everything else that then they couldn't use the word 'ecosystem' is downright silly!

THIS IS ALLLLL A POINTLESS ARGUEMENT!!! This was Imurakami's IMAGINATION! He saw the gigantic thing in the sky and IMAGED what it would look like striking earth! He was GUESSING THE SIZE OF IT! We have no idea how big it was! I was just continuing the argumenet with Zeo to annoy him cause the image was mislabelled! We will never know how big the asteroid was because we never saw a true size comparison!

Not to defend Zeo in any manner, but the image wasn't his. He google imaged it and nothing written in the image was done by him. I think.

Point A: Good debating skill, claiming I haven't done something I did throughout the previous post, dur hur. You didn't even address the quotes I gave you. And you still haven't shown me where your quote is, you're just claiming it exists Also, it's a great debate skill where you talk about "burden of proof" and you agree with Super Existance on stasis fields, which is a complete and absolute assumption with no proof ot the novel. Lame. Also, what is necessarily known doesn't support your logic. No matter how many times you TELL me it does, it's not going to change the fact that you're completely guessing. Also, telling me you've given me proof when you haven't reallllly isn't a good debate skill either. A lot of the stuff you said was random and doesn't prove much. Point B: So, you didn't make that image, which said ON the image that the asteroid was pluto sized? GOOD GOING MAN!!!! I had thought you had created the image yourself. What the image did was count how many pixels there was from left to right on both the earth and the asteroid. Then, knowing the diameter of earth in real life, he figured out how many kilometers equals one pixel. Then, using multiplication, he figured out the asteroids size. Which was slightly larger than pluto. Incase you couldnt' figure out what the image you had shown me said. I like the image idea better than the "well it looks like Mars but it hit on an angle and depth perception so mercury" thing you're floundering about Also, pluto is a dwarf planet. No matter how many times you tell me it's not, it is. I gave you the link so you could educate yourself. Point C: Oh... so they manipulated the ecosystem... like, let's say, altering it more than a meteor? Also, they manipulating the genetic structure of humans so they could turn into werewolfs, which is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CREATURE, EVOLUTIONARY WISE, THAN A HUMAN BEING stop using this odd scientific logic on me, you're forgetting that Khan can turn into a buggering awesome dragon by absorbing other human beings into his body. Can you scientifically explain THAT to me? Shouldn't evolution have taken part in that? Well... if you can't, then maybe the Creators can create a T-Rex! I'm not saying they were able to guess work it, but if they do some mucking around, and see a smaller, more primordial dinosaur, couldn't they easily turn it into a bigger, badder version of itself? Wouldn't that cut down on evolution about 100,000 million years? I know they could, but you're going to say "burden of proof" as you're talking about the Advent stopping their aging when they found their Guyver units (edit: I'm phrasing that simply, I know you're babbling about statis fields and some stuff) Also, my reason is as logical as yours, you just think because you're using REAL WORLD SCIENCE instead of details left in the book that defy logic, you are more right than anyone else with an idea. Yet, you still forget the book is not based on science what-so-ever. Throw that idea away. Throw it out completely! Also, that entire page on the T-Rex stuff you wrote is mostly irrelevant. You can do me a favor and cut down on that bulk so I can respond easier. Okay, I'll throw this zinger out at you, I know you'll debate it but whatever.. What, if a dinosaur, as small as my thumb, that only took 200,000 million years to create was the "world war II" tank, and what if the T-Rex was the new modified awesome bad ass Iraeli sand stormer? My "proof" is the fact that they were able to further genetically enhance the T-Rex. This makes perfect sense. I'm sure you'll argue otherwise. Point D: You skipped a buncha what I wrote. It's cool. You also ignored a lot of my points. the ADVANCEMENT THAT SOUTH KOREA HAD WAS BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY WAS ALREADY LAID OUT FOR THEM! They didn't have to recreate the wheel, or the engine, or the breaks or the anti-lock breaks or the air conditioning or the emissions or suspension or chassis... it was already made! Hell, Kia hasn't even had anything NEW or INVENTIVE in their cars, they're just compact. This information was readily available to South Korea. That is why they have a far faster level of advancement. The Japanese did not invent trains, and Japan as a nation was made BEFORE the US as a nation, so stupid point anyway A lot of this stuff has absolutely nothing to do with any of your point... undeveloped nations wont even be working on space technology! Those People in India who are in tech support, where do you think they went to college to get their education! Your definition of 'advancement' is truly flawed. But I'm assuming what you're really saying is that because developed nations have already laid down an infrastructure, undeveloped nations have an easier time laying down a more advanced infrastructure but that doesn't mean they advance faster. If they had to relearn everything themselves, you'd see the US coming out with new computers and faster planes and space ships to mars while they were just learning about some sort of primordial sewage system So your point is not only subjective but inherently wrong. Point E: Saying some things you want to believe need to be based on a scientific reason while saying others don't is a real asinine way to be. You seem to be angry at religious People who believe differently than you. This could possibly be a reason why it's HEARSAY to think that the Creators rushed the evolution of earth However, I do believe the earth was made from stardust and rock 4.5 billion years ago. I just don't believe it in the context of the Guyver universe. It could be one or two billion years. Maybe 100 million. But with such vast technology, there's no reason to believe otherwise I'm going to ignore pretty much everything else you said because you're bringing in real life irrelevant details to the arguement Just because we have 2.5billion fossils of primative life form, doesn't mean our science in carbon dating could be wrong, in both REAL LIFE and the story. In real life, we probably wont be too off, in the ball park of half a billion. In the story, well, since I see aliens and dragons and blackholes, I'm going to say the difference could be much vaster edit: After reading a few more posts, I am want to go back to point D Zeo is 100% right he's just phrasing it in a really odd and confusing way He doesn't mean that 1st world nations, as a universal constant, advance slower than third world nations He was saying that on earth, because of cheaper labor, newfound techniques, greater technology, global trade, newly discovered resources, and a completely unlaid infrastructure, the 3rd world nation will advance MUCH faster than the fully developed nation and he was comparing this situation to Chronos and the Advent (being third world and first world respectively) since Chronos has all the Resources that the Advent did He didn't mean it was universally constant I think... Anyway, it is a very good and apt comparison, so ignore my point D I'll leave this thread with an awesome quote that zeo didn't really address, but should be addressed anyway:

Hughes in FMA, easy. I was in utter shock when he died. It was like Aeris all over again.

Point A: Burden of proof on you: Where to the uranos say anything about "letting nature take its course?" No quote exists. YOU have just added new information. Burden of proof on YOU sir... And to answer your "burden of proof" question I'm sure you'll ignore this like the majority of my points. And I told you to stop using that term cause you have said things without any shred of storyline evidence quite a lot during the arguement. Saying the Advent could have evolved much quicker with a Guyver unit... saying Alcanphel got up and walked around before Balcus got to him... you do it a lot too. We all make assumptions (key word here). The point, STILL, of my arguements is that all you're clammering at here are assumptions, and that you could be wrong and others could possibly be right. Point B) What actually happened: someone said the asteroid was much bigger than the moon, closer to Mars. You chimed in and said it was closer to Mercury. I questioned you, you answered, I didn't understand HOW you determined your measurements, but from the picture, you claimed the asteroid was 1,800 Kilometers in diameter. If this is the case, the meteor is closer to Pluto. And Pluto is a Dwarf Planet. I don't understand why you keep chiming in about the angle of impact, nor do I understand why you keep talking about dividing its size in half. I'm sure you can take time out of your busy schedule to explain this to me. Point C) No, it's not saying a caveman could whip up a car in a scratch. If the Creators can WHIP UP a T-Rex from nothing, LOGIC dictates they have enough technology to put it together through guess work. Logic also dictates that if the Creators can WHIP UP a T-Rex from nothing, they have the ability to speed up the enviroment and alter the creatures living on the planet. This can be done not just through altering their envoriment, but flooding it with viruses/proteins/nanomachines/whatever into the air, or picking up and altering creatures and putting them back into the area to breed, they could bombard them with different radiation... anything! it's not also completely out of the realm of possibility (this is a hard term for you, I know) that they picked up the majority of the race to alter them because they had pretty much turned the entire human race into Zoanoids. You end your arguement by saying the human beings in the comic COULD believe the same things as we do... but you're missing my point. I'm sure they DO believe the same things as we do. I'm saying the People in the comic could be mislead completely. Here are the quotes, in the book, that make me believe that there was more of an aggressive approach at developing life: Yes, I can understand where you are coming from. But you're still assuming, just like I'm assuming. You're claiming you have logic on your side by deciphering as many quotes as I have deciphered and by looking at two pictures of life spiralling from simple to human... that's not logic dude. It's way too weak to be logic. You add in a lot of worthless details in your arguements. Who cares that they processed the T-Rex. What does that have to do with anything? Point D: The Creators did not bestow any knowledge of the Relic ships to Alchanphel. If they did, I'd say Chronos would have fleets of them by now. "Burden of proof," ya know? Point E: No, he's not referring to history really. The exact passage is dealing with atmosphere, and has nothing to do with oxygen. It's a no brainer the atmophere was different back in the days of the dnosaur, I hope you're not taking that as "proof" Takaya wants us to believe this is just like the real world the same way you tried to convince me by informing me he was using cities like "Tokyo" and "New York." Point F: Actually they had a perfect idea of what they wanted to create, Zeo. It is not a stretch to think they would modify a creature on the planet and watch him for a couple of million years then scrap it when it doesn't turn out the way they want it to turn out. Point G: I find it funny you keep using "reasonable suspension of belief." I'm sorry, but I can't reasonably believe anything in this comic could ever happen. That wasn't the American president OR the Japanese prime minister they showed in book 9. Why not use real-life political figures if the time-frame is so important for your ability to grasp the story without making it feel "too fake" for you. Takaya ONLY wanted to give the comic a feel that this entire thing could be happening around us... that the Guyvers could exist, that Chronos could secretly be conquering the world, that everything we know is wrong. If the Uranos shaved off two or so billion years creating the Earth, as long as the scientists in the Guyver-world still believed that the earth is 3.3 billion years old, well, all is well. Also, there's no such thing as Mount Minakami. Point H: It is MOSTLY because the technology is already laid out for them, good sir. This is a well documented fact. Now, you seem to have shifted the arguement towards the NEEDS of a nation. Yes, if a nation does not "need" anything, it will slow down it's production. This has nothing to do with developed nations vs undeveloped nations. A developed nation (Iraq) was developing a lot faster than its undeveloped neighbor (Iran) during the 1990s because it felt the need to become more industrialized to compete with the western worlds, while Iran thought it should be true to its customs and use very little western technology. To Iran, they had everything they needed without advancing (how I wish that were still the case). Are you saying over the last five years, Zimbabwe and Uganda and Togo have advanced more than the United States? I'm going to 100% give you a no here. Most developing nations don't have these Resources you're talking about. If you take a nation with all farm, no technology, and compare it to a nation of all technology, that technological nation is going to advance faster. They not only have more tools and more know-how, but because they can produce things faster, they can also work on many breakthroughs at once. We also seem to differ on the term "advancement." If that farm nation discovers the secrets of irrigation, and the technological nation creates a new supercomputer that is twice as fast as the old ones, who is advancing more? I'm not sure why you added anything about the Aerol Gel. Point I: .... you're claiming that your father being genetically tampered and turning into a purple werewolf is inside the realm of believability to you? You kidding me? I'm watching Guyver because it is OUTSIDE the possible realm of believability for me. I know this drenn wont happen to me in real life. EVER. That's why I watch it. Point J: You know, the least you could do is admit you're wrong. I mean, I know I don't do it, but you could say "yeah, good rebuttal on my assumption that humans have lost technology. You are right that because of our storage methods of data today, it is very hard to completely lose a skillset or a part of technology." Also, I know scientists agree that the earth is 4.54 billion years old (actually, I didn't know until I looked. I have no idea how outdated my info was, but at a time, Scientists believed the earth was below 4 billion years old. Just noting that). I know that probably in the Guyver world, scientists believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old. Scientists probably didn't think Zoanoids existed until they took over the world. So, likewise, Scientists could be a little off on their measurements of when life took place on earth. If the Uranos really did alter life, sped things up, changed around things... they could make it LOOK to scientists like the earth and creatures are much older than they are. After all, where is that dinosaur carcus that Guyver 0 killed, the one that is only a few million years old! I mean, do you still not understand what i'm saying? I've tried to explain this point several times already. Point K: Wasn't ten pages of your counter-arguements rants about how because the Advent were so ancient, millions of years to us were like minutes to them? War doesn't correlate into your assumptions sir? Don't think it doesn't urk me a bit that you're still answering this question with the mindset that earth is 4 billion years old. Point L: So you're saying one of the reasons Chronos wanted to invent this stuff as fast as possible was because they had staff that had a finite age limit? Didn't I suggest that the Advent may be made up of short lived races along with the ultra long lived ones, and that might spur growth on their side? Just to tell you, I know I did suggest that, I'm just phrasing it in a sorta dickish way. Point M: See, now if I were arguing with you, the fact that you never said they weren't always long lived would be fine. However, if you were arguing with yourself, you'd hear yourself screaming "BURDEN OF PROOF" at the top of his lungs. Because you have no proof that says the Advent haven't lived for 8 billion years, the fact that, to you, they have lived 4 billion years means they must have always lived like that. Funny how that drenn gets back to you, huh? Weren't you the one talking about things not fitting as shown? To evolve incredibly fast, into a race that lives 5 billion years and barely evolves, makes no sense. It's actually FAR FAR FAR more feasible that the Advent have technology that can prolong their lives to near infinity. I wouldn't mind that assumption, had you said it to me. However, to you, that involves adding a few details that weren't necessarily given, and that's a big "no no" in your books. It's sort of batshit to ignore the possibility that the Advent could have left and returned to earth inbetween all their experiments, changing their staff, gathering supplies, informing their leaders of their progress. I'm not saying evryone got up and left, I'm saying a few ships every couple of hundred years. The fact that you refuse to think of this as a logical theory because it isn't shown in the Manga is pretty ridiculous.

Point A: You are not allowed to use "burden of proof" for any of your counter-arguements. Everything you have said is lacking any sort of direct quote or mention in the series. You are banned from using the term "you're making an assumption" or "You have no way of knowing that" either. You are not allowed to talk about an inability to suspend beliefs if I'm right, because the entire story focuses on a cybernetic symbiote alien bonding with a human to fight a giant freakin' eel creature. I'm sorry you're having trouble suspending your beliefs the things I am telling you here. Point B: Someone said "mars sized" and you arrogently said "closer to mercury sized" so I'm saying "much closer to pluto sized" which is technically a dwarf planet. Point C: Guyver Zero fought a T-Rex. This means the Creators can whip up dinosaurs whenever they want. Kinda worthless to let nature take its course, eh? Yes, they used meteors to cause mass extinction but you're ASSUMING this is the only thing they did. I have pointed out quotes which state they altered the size of dinosaurs to make them better predators, and created specific humans from nothing. Stop ignoring the quotes that don't work for you and throwing in my face repetitively quotes that DO work. You are ASSUMING the quotes the Uranos used were only for dropping meteors on the planet. I am assuming they are not. Why are you telling me evolution cannot be sped up? There is NO WAY to break the speed of light, humans cannot be turned into fish creatures, there is no such gene in a humans body that allows them to be controlled telepathically. URANOS DON'T EXIST. Stop using common sense scientific fact to back up a comic book. How in the world is using earth's ancient name proof that the earth was created 3.3 billion years ago? You're stretching man. The earth had areas covered in valcanos all the way up to 200 million years ago, and more to the point, you're STILL arguing that real world carbon dating and aging studies are correct. My entire arguement has been based on the assumption that the Creators may have created the world in 100 million years, we do not know the exact date, so stop assuming. Now there are lots of lines, as I've pointed out, which I consider that the Uranos were tampering with us at stages of our evolution, rushing the process along, altering us step by step. You have straight up told me that everything I have told you is either wrong or "Advocacy mistranslating lines." Maybe some of them are right. Think about it. Point D: Just a side note, those "blueprints" aren't original creator plans, sir. These are the blueprints of the information CHRONOS got from the ship. Point E: Another side note, you must be reading a different translation from me. They never mentioned anything about oxygen content. They just said the enviroment wasn't suited for the T-Rex. You're probably throwing in more scientific details which have nothing to do with this discussion. I've only judging on the Advocacy translation. If you have other translations, feel free to show me sir. Point F: You seem to be claiming the Creators did nothing but launch meteors at earth and watch what happened and hoped for the best. Let me ask you, if the Creators had enough technology to take humans and turn them into rhinos and beatles and gods, why did they wait to see what evolution would give them? It is LOGICAL to assume they helped speed up evolution. Point G: Because this is still obviously lost on you, I am saying in the story that the earth may not be 3.3 billion years old. For the comic book. Not in real life. Point H: You are still using that NYC subway technology thing to make your arguments. I did a research paper on this specifically. It's not that these nations are developing faster than us, it's that the technology is ALREADY LAID OUT FOR THEM and new materials are available for them, new ways of constructing tracks properly are laid out for them... so they have greater technology available to them. Back when the NYC subways were made, that was top notch. Unfortunately, we cannot simply tear up the tracks and replace them. This has nothing to do with developing nations developing faster than us. Also, I'd stop using Japan as your key example, cause Japan as a nation has been around much longer than the United States. Point I: In my lifetime, I have never seen a Guyver. Or a Zoanoid. Or a Zoalord. Considering these are completely alien concepts to us Humans, I am going out on a limb here and saying the Creators may be as well. Also, adding onto this point, some universal constants do not hold in the world of Guyver, like, let's say, creating mass (a human turning into Gregore) or gravity (from Guyot's fists) from nothing. Sure, you can give me a bullshit fake scientific explanation, but I'll bet ya no matter how advanced humans get, we'll never be able to make a human sporatically turn into Gregore. Point J: To correct another assumption you made, my entire point of this arguement was to inform everyone that you're assuming the earth, in the Guyver universe, was made 3.3 billion years ago, and my point is you don't know that. Capish? Also, since you're asking: How to Forge Damascus Steel How to survive in the wilderness GASP! That information is readily available to us! Instantaneously I know how to survive in the wilderness AND forge damascus steel! God bless the internet, one example of the PROPER STORAGE OF INFORMATION I was talking about that someone missed. Point K: Wrong. War is known to spur incredible growth. Disease advances technology incredibly. The need to communicate, the need to transport, the need to entertain ones self. You're assuming they have all the answers to everything. As-sume. Point L: so... if these guys are seemingly immortal... Why did they go from sailing ships to building spaceships in 400 years? Hmmm..... This goes against every single thing you have said to me since the beginning of this arguement! Wait, don't tell me why, I know the answers. Factors. Point M: But... but... to a race that lives eight billion years, wouldn't war be like... a million years and a bajillion casualties is like... a second? Man!!! Also, why the hell were they building a race of warriors in warships if they were at a time of peace? According to EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TOLD ME, there would be absolutely no reason for this if they have everything they need. There's a few things I have to say about this. A) we don't know it was 4 billion years, you really wont get off that. B) We only literally see the Creators at one time period. For you to make such an assumption is astounding. C) Creating anthropods to human beings shows serious technological advancement. Oh jesus... where does it say they didn't??? Doesn't it make LOGICAL sense for a few staff changes if they've been working on a project, with your guestimation, of 4 billion years? You're saying because there is an absence of knowledge, we must logically assume that all that exists is all we know. If that's the case, then if I break my gas guage, I will NEVER RUN OUT OF GAS EVER AGAIN. Point Z (my favorite point): You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

More quick responses: 1) So it's a pluto sized astroid. I mean, you totally kicked my ass with that mathematical equation you made there, I'm just picking hairs on this one. also: No, this is an assumption. They're living ships, so chances are the outside is going to remaint he same, but the insides could have changed drastically. This actually makes sense, since 2) Sorry, but unless it' the translation, I read books 14 and 15 over again and I'm more convinced they drastically spread up the process. They talk about things like altering the earths enviroment for their causes, and increases the size of dinosaurs to make them more savage for their needs. And yes, you see a fossil of a dinosaur, but I'd like to also remind you that ALCHANPHEL FOUGHT A DINOSAUR that the creaters just randomly whipped up for him. I'm not saying the Advent's process didn't say millions, if not a billion years, but I just can't conquere with you that it took exactly 3.3 billion years. The Creators don't say "we came eons ago to your planet" but "many many years." They also say they created Alcanphel just like they "created all life on this planet," so you can take this phrase like you are taking it ('tweaking life") or I am taking it ("THEY LITERALLY CREATED THE LIFE). I've read these books before, you know. 3) Quote from book 15, "what would become of us if any other should possess a unit... such accidents may very well occur in the future... We realized it during the recent experiment... in the end, we consider you almost outside our control tolerance. We have no defense against a being out of our control." Now, I may be completely wrong on this, because I think everyone agrees with you that the Creators are actually talking to Alcanphel in this quote... but I think that the Creators are talking about the HUMAN RACE. This is digressing here, but I don't think they were really worried about Alcanphel. When they saw that a human with the unit wouldn't be controlled by their mind control, they realized how fragile their mind control was over humans, and realized they couldn't control them 100% of the time. You may be right though, as everyone seems to agree with you on this. 4) The intro to the ova says no such thing. And I see that picture you're referring to... I see the quote... and I can see where you are GETTING all this... but that still doesn't mean the process took 3.3 billion years. This is a comic book. What if the entire process took the advents 500 million years? Or 250 million? They have the technology to change the enviroment, to speed up evolution, and there are CONSTANT quotes on tweaking a lifeform to their needs, or creating life. I've never said this process took a day, but it doesn't make SENSE that the Uranos are 5 billion years old. 5) First off, I still find huge flaws in your logic (if life span was much shorter back then, why are we inventing things at 50x the speed when our lifespan is TWICE AS LONG/Less developed nations do NOT develop faster than developed nations... they develop slowly and only increase in their technology because they're taking it from other countries/Later developed countries have better implimentation of technology because they impliment it after better things are already made... this is a completely mute point, I did an entire 12-page paper on this in my tech class/) but you're still using HUMANS as your base example, and you have no other lifeform to compare to this. And another thing, you DON'T know the factors that influence their society. So stop pretending you do. 6) This we agree on. This was actually my entire point of arguement from the beginning. If we agree on this, I'm not sure why we're going to continue this debate. However, I guarentee we will! 7) First off, we didn't "forget" technology, they were lost in times when we had no means of storing this information properly for future generations. I guarentee, unless there is a nuclear war, no one is going to forget about the refridgerator. Secondly, the fact that you mention that different species evolve differently, at different paces, because of different factors, is something I can now USE to say you have no idea how the Uranos evolved, at what pace, and because of what factors. Look, I'm reading what you're writing, and a lot of it is not only far outside the realm of anything remotely related to this arguement (and incredibly boring), but I feel we're splitting hairs here. I'm just SAYING that you're assuming the Creators are just like us, but who live 8 billion years, and advance every second, and this was throwing fuel on the fire to all those People who were arguing that Chronos can eventually catch up and SURPASS the technology of the Advent. I was saying that no one knows how long lived the Creators were, nor do you know the factors that are effecting their lives. They had a 100 million-3.3 billion war project that failed, and if they are in a global war, who the hell KNOWS what technology they were forced to come up with in those 10-100 thousand year. And ANOTHER note, who knows what OTHER technological breakthroughs the Creators were working on at the same time as the Gaia Project which upped their technology by a thousand fold. Also, you never responded to this, so I'm going to post it again because I think it's an awesome flaw in your arguement: You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. LARGE NOTE: I am much more prone to agree that they have advanced pretty much unimaginably and there's not much else to advance on at this point. So you may be right on their lack of development at this end of the arguement.

Oh swet jesus... Before I BEGIN this phase of responses, I'm asking for a moderator to both move this to the scientific discussion forum and edit Zeo's posts so he STOPS USING THE RETURN KEY SO MUCH. It's aggrivating. First point (I don't usually do the whole quote thing): You're assuming. Stop assuming. The exact text in the Manga says that the Advent came to earth because it could substain life, not because it was beginning to substain life. This could be exactly four billion years ago, or a hundred million years ago. You're assuming the Advent would create cellular life, then wait for it to evolve. There is little to no evidence of this in the story. Takaya shows (in only one picture in the entire manga) multiple steps in the evolutionary circle as a colorful effect to show that the Advent created all the creatures on earth from the beginning to end. You're assuming that this also shows some sort of timeline. For all we know, they could have created the entire Jurassic time period in a day, watched it for a week, then obliterated it in a day. They only brought meteors on the earth when they realized that their next experiments needed a different climate. If they have the ability to create and predict cellular life, it's reasonable to believe that they can speed up climatic and enviromental changes. Of course, I'm just assuming. We have no way of knowing how long things took.... so I'm saying your next point, which is VERY wrong, is also irrelevant because we have no idea how long it took to create earth. Keep assuming though, I'll just keep reminding you how your points could also be wrong. Anyway, I thought about it for a while, and I'll use your logic against you. For shits and giggles. You're claiming it took the Advent 4 billion years to create the earth. You're claiming the advent advance at a snails pace, maybe a scientific breakthrough every 10-100 million years. If this is the case, and the universe has only existed for 13 billion years... even assuming that the Advent have existed since the BEGINNING OF TIME, how in the world did they progress to the level of creating cellular growth in the blink of an eye and traversing lightyears of space in a matter of minutes? This makes zero sense if you're trying to convince me that the Advent both evolve and advance at an unimaginable snails pace. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Second point: I'll just point out this: You do not KNOW what happens to extremely long lived races. How many extremely long lived races do you know? Assumingggggggggggggg. You make them sound technologically unlimited. If this is the case, then YEAH, if they have unlimited technology and can do whatever they wanted, I guess there is no longer a need to progress, and but then there's absolutely no way for Chronos to catch up with them. Great!!! Just some other points that annoyed me: Alcanphel isn't their mental equal... please show me the chapter+page where this is stated. Alcanphel was stopped dead in his tracks with a thought by the Advent. This really doesn't show mental equal. Also, you go on and on about mental powers which is completely off subject. Yes, this is true... sorta a decent point, but I woulda ironically responded with what you said next: Actually sir, I think YOU are confusing adaptability with progress. That was my whole point of my previous post. Considering we only know of one species that have evolved intelligently, we cannot assume that all species evolved like us. We have only RECENTLY evolved into intelligent creatures and we are having VAST improvements in technology only in the last two hundreds years of our 200,000 years of existance. But alas, YOUR entire previous post was telling me that creatures that evolve slower take longer to create technology. Now you're verging on a tangent. I only brought up the other animals because you tried to convince me that roaches, with small life spans, evolve VERY fast. Computers, spaceships, submarines, HDTV, vibrators... did these inventions come out because of evolution, or random scientific advancement? Did we NEED to invent these? No. They came out because of wants, or major events (war, international rivalries, sexual drives but unable to pick up men) in our timelines. This had nothing to do with Evolution. I don't know why I quoted this, it's a completely worthless point. HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY AREN"T MOTIVATED? You're assuming! These are made-up aliens in a comic! They could evolve everyday and have billion year lifespans! CAP LOCK! They never changed the outward appearence of the relics. Assssuuuuuumingggggggg. They brought a giant meteor down to earth.... Not violent? Third point: Uh, you may be completely right, but I'm not exactly understanding how you're coming to this estimate. You're using terms I don't really understand But your final estimates don't seems to make much sense... if the asteroid is 1.8 kilometers long from pole to pole, it's about as big as pluto, and much smaller than mercury. It's a dumb point though.

First off Zeo, too much use of the return key. Try to shrink some of that stuff up. You argue that Takaya uses exact timelines because he knows a bunch of cities in Japan and New York? That's a weak arguement dude. You can't tell me that Takaya uses the exact evolutionary timeline because of the creatures he shows, but then tell me that he uses a different time-line with the humans. Actually, Balcus has more or less stated that Alcanphel actually was sleeping the entire period. There is the flaw in your logic! You are saying that evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would invent! I say LACK of evolution correlates to the amount of technology a race of creatures would NEED to invent. Your entire arguement is based on the fact that the Advents have everything they need. Since the Advent were creating a race of super adaptable warriors, there was clearly some sort of armed conflict going on, ala war. And if a species does not evolve fast enough, they will need to create many inventions to help them live... they are CLEARLY not very suited for multiple enviroment since that was the reason they were creating humans to go fight their wars for them. A slower evolution, ALSO, does not correlate to how smart a race is. Tortoises live MUCH LONGER than human beings. Mice live much shorter. Dolphins are in the middle, and humans live inbetween tortoises and dolphins. Why do we ride in cars while the rest have little to no grasp of tool use what-so-ever? It's because we have evolved into a far smarter race then they have. How do you know the Advents are NOT just insanely smarter than your average human being? Regardless of lifespan, that still could probably mean thousands of technological breakthroughs between the time they left earth and now. Still, let's say I believed you. Lastly, the Uranos were a GROUPING of species, not one type of species. For all you know, their numbers could include creatures that last a billion years and creatures that last five days. The collaboration of creatures, that, in your slightly flawed logic, learn and think extremely fast along with creatures that can retain information for eons, would invent things at a VERY fast rate. Okay, now this arguement is just ridiculous right now. The image of the FAR MORE MARS SIZED OBJECT crashing into earth is not viewed in third person. The image is Imurakami's thought process, looking at the asteroid approaching earth and then imagining what would happen if the meteor actually crashed into earth!! It could actually be moon sized and it could be just as large as the earth! What in the world are you trying to prove here? You're using vague scientific terms to try and win an arguement that is baseless. Sheesh.

A few misconceptions you're having zeo: a) You're assuming that the timeline in real life correlates to the timeline in Guyver. I've already said that I've had my doubts about this. It might have taken the Creaters 100 million years to finish their experiments. This is a comic where ten foot rhino/human creatures breath fire while their beatle/human bosses back them up by firing photonic beams of energy. I'm not throwing in modern day carbon dating b) the longer a persons lifespan does NOT correlate to how fast a person progressives on the scale of technology. If this was the case, fruit flies would be flying around in warships with giant laser beams conquering human kind. Yes, this DOES mean that lesser intellectual periods would last longer (baby, toddler, kid, teen, etc.) but that still gives the Uranos thousands/millions of years to advance their technology. c) your mercury/mars comparison sounds totally pulled out of your ass Also there is a poll for all those possibilities on the forum already.

First off to Salkafar, Volume 11, Page 48.. exact quote we're talking here. The advents left earth 20 million years ago. Now, since in THE REAL WORLD ancestrial humans have walked around the earth for a good 200,000 years (unless we're talking about Neanderthals, which could send us back up to two million years, but I'd say Neanderthals would more logically have been the prototypes for human beings created by the Advent), I'd say that this is a little bit of a poetic stretch for Takaya. Even still, if this is how it's written, then there is no doubt that the Advent are WAY more advanced than Chronos could ever dream of being. Let's say though, that this was just Agito using hyperbole to increase the drama in the situation. I'm still going to say that the advent are FAR superior to Chronos. To even build a warship, Chronos had to copy technology from the Relic that was GOD KNOWS how old. Sure, they're producing Zoanoids far more powerful than the Uranos did, but don't forget... THE URANOS MADE ALCANPHEL! They have the technology to make dozens of God-like creatures. I really feel that Alcanphel is banking on getting a Guyver unit before he begins his journey. There seems to be a consensus on this forum that thinks that if Chronos left now, with their army of a billion Zoanoids and the twelve supreme Zoalords, they'd battle the Advent to a standstill. I'd say they'd get annahilated in five minutes, TOPS... If earth was really such a threat, the Advent woulda made damn sure it was destroyed. They barely gave it a thought. Also, while that was a brilliant breakdown Salkafar, I'm not sure real world time lines apply here. This is a world where human beings are turned into winged bats that shoot sonic beams at super powered humans wearing parasitic bio-suits of armor. Carbon dating in that world could have been vastly off target. You brought up a DAMN good point though... why not genetically alter ones brain to make them super smart? Moreso, do we know that Chronos hasn't? As for Ghidorah, bro, I just think you're way off target here. With a thought, the Uranos put Alcanphel in a near coma state. Then, they teleported a MARS (thanks Salkafar) sized rock at earth to shatter it in a bajillion pieces. Alcanphel used up all his energy to destroy the rock and was then put in a REAL coma state. If the Advent knew that Alcanphel had destroyed the meteor, they would have also known it would have taken ALL his life force to do so (because, you know, they made him) and sent another one to really finish the job. Why spend half a million years creating a creature strong enough to take down Alcanphel when they have the mental control to crush him with their imposing will? Do you think it took half a million years to make Alcanphel? (although, if it did, then you guys maybe onto something). I just look at the Uranos as a group of sloppy scientists. They made a product that was potentially harmful, and, pissed off (and maybe facing some litigation cause some of their partners died?) they decided to just ditch the crap and tossed it (moreso tossed something at it) without looking to see if they really got rid of it or not. Humanity was too unevolved to be any threat to the advent, they had no way of getting off the planet at the time! The Advent were probably more pissed that they had to scrap their experiment, they weren't worried about the future at all. This looks like it might come back to bite them in the ass. If Apollyon really is from the Advent, it's cause they randomly looked towards earth's way and saw the Ark and said "Ohhhhh... fudge... uhm... guys...? Better come take a look at this..." This certainly wasn't in planning for sometime. Also, as for the constant translation of Apollyon's name, this seems like a good generic name for an enemy of Alcanphel (who is God). It simply means someone who will lead an attack against God, so it could easily be another Alcanphel level Zoalord or a new strong member of Zeus' Thunderbolts, or a creation of Guyot's. As long as he's against Alcanphel. I think I've debated enough. I'll let my thoughts drift until after the translation.

Okay, just checked back on an older Manga issue... the advent left 20 MILLION YEARS AGO! I was under the assumption they left only a million years ago. I don't care if they increase their technology at snail speed, they must be ludicrously advanced by now. Alcanphel is banking on numbers and his hopes he can bond with a Guyver unit... else they stand no chance in an all out attack. It also makes me more certain that apollyon is not directly involved with the Advent. Twenty MILLION years and they give a damn now? Looking iffy. ************************************* This topic was getting out of control in the orignial thread topic that it started in so it has thus been moved here so it can continue at it's own pace without disrupting the other thread. Thank you for both your understanding and cooperation. Sincerely, The Japan-Legend Administrative & Moderating Staff *************************************