Jukai

A few things we should clear up here a) you are not my boss. b) There is no rule that I must give respect to a forum member (even the founder) who is giving none in return c) If I see you blatantly abusing your own rules that you made yourself, I'm not going to let it go we ARE going to take this to PM, but I just wanna make it clear that I'm not going to back down on this. I'm also sending a carbon copy to some admins to see what they feel.

Hey! Where are those Zeo! I've never seen those, they're friggin' awesome... and do prove your points! As for Molecular Self Assembly... it's an interesting theory that I never really thought of, but rather uncommon. Also, I may be wrong, but don't creatures have to gather the material somehow? Like, we just can't form calcium, we have to absorb it. Now knowing that the gravity spheres form every time no matter what, I'm more inclined to think they're biological instead of purely inorganic. Could be a combination. is there data files for the gravity orbs?

Hmm, you are strangely aggressive. I'm taking this to Private Messaging as to not further hurt the flow of debate on this thread. Feel free to move anything you don't like, but I'd request you not delete it, since it appears you and me cannot work this out between us.

Ryuki, I wasn't going to ask for favors anyway. If you really want me to, I can go back and show you everytime you overreacted to Zeo and how you're telling him he's violating rules which you yourself are violating. So far, besides Zeo having awful organization when debating, he hasn't violated any rules I have seen. If you wish to continue this conversation off the debate board, feel free to delete this message and give me a PM. But I feel you've gravely overreacted and in turn, ignored a lot of great points Zeo has made. PM me or re-read what you've said and come to your own conclusion. Either/or.

Super Existance, I agree 100% with the beginning of your post. Everything on the Guyver, save the control media, is organic. I wouldn't say conclusively, but its more probable that the control media is forcing cell regrowth instead of using nanomachines to create metallic parts (considering its alive, and living things don't usually have nano machines in their body). However, I'm not taking the majority of that statement from the scientists to heart. If I remmeber correctly, the debriefing was taking place in Arizona... while the knowledge fo the Guyver was mostly kept in Japan. The scientists had probably heard rumors of the Guyver, but didn't know anything deep and scientific. I'm guessing all SCIENTIFIC information on the Guyvers was kept in Japan. If information was traded freely throughout Chronos, then the schematics of Enzyne I woulda been readily available to Balcus, and not destroyed in the destruction of Chronos Japan. Also, Chronos was a secret organization, so keeping information readily flowing throughout their organization would not be a wise thing to do (and being a Network Engineer and Security Analyst I AM the leading authority on that statement here). I'm also gauging this by the scientists reaction. If the scientists knew about the bio-boost dimension, they woulda already known about the mega-smasher and all the other Guyver abilities. They would of read about them and known already of their destructive power. Instead, it looked like they were learning all fo these details for the first time. So, any utterances they said during that issue, I dunno if I would use them in any debate on this forum.

I'll answer that for Super Existence if you don't mind, Zeo The question is if the Bio-Booster Clone Monster is a "complete clone." It looks nothing like the Guyver Unit, and you can either think "well.. that's what the organism would look like if it wasn't hampered by the control media" or you could say "it's just a random creature that came about randomly through the arm" Either one could be correct and we'll never know cause it'll never tell us I don't LIKE the Bio-Booster Clone Monster (as you guys keep aptly calling it) anyway, because throughout the series we are told that the DNA of a human is stored in the control media, and that Bio-Boosted monster disproves that completely. Which is aggrivating.

Ryuki, I'm going to have to ask you to cut it out. You are being nasty and not taking Zeo seriously when in a lot of ways he's got good points and you really don't. You are debunking his statements without a shred of logic and at the same time you're being nasty about it. Cut the crap, man. Relax and actually debate him. If you feel his points are straying from the arguement, don't respond to them. Likewise, Zeo, to avoid confusion, you should focus on the main points (How Zoanoids store their mass, where they get their energy from, and elaborating on theories) while at the end of your posts, or in a short beginning statement, you can debunk whatever you like. You should also be a bit more careful when giving out points because you speak of them like the god-ordained truth. For example, you keep talking about how the human brain is like a quantum computer, when that is heavily up for debate and a lot of it is under fire in the scientific community. Be more specific when you are talking about theories that are assumptions and just meant to enlighten, and when you're actually sure of something that you think others are mistaken on. For the record, I agree with Zeo on the fact that the Chronos Scientists in book six knew next to NOTHING about the Guyver Units, and that the bio-boost organism needs to "eat" (not necessarily hunt, but all creatures "hunt" in a sense to get food). He's making assumptions, but they're more than probably right. Can we continue this debate now?

Whoa, a whole lot there to respond to for Zeo. I'll just respond to my own: First off, artificially creating a white hole means using negative energy. Which means, you're not gaining any energy. Which means, no. Secondly, I don't get why I can't say "Takaya probably disregarded the law of conservation of mass" while you can say that Takaya is using Chi to transform Zoanoids. There is no mention of Chi anywhere in the context of the Guyver universe, you can't even manipulate the text remotely to make you believe there is any semblance of Chi or Chakra or Ki or some sort of mythical energy. Hense, if I was told I can't just say Takaya is breaking the Law of Conservation of Energy to create Zoanoids because it's unscientific, I think Chi should be discluded in a list of theories. That's all. Also, what's up with this "if we can't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" stuff. Didn't you jump on me when you thought I was using creationist logic on you? (note: comment not meant to be mean, but I'm too cool to use an emote) AND ANOTHER THING (also not meant to be mean), when I brought up the possibility that carbon dating may be wrong in the context of the story, you yelled at me saying Carbon dating is deffinitely not wrong. Now you're telling me that science proves and disproves stuff all the time! SHAME! But I digress, your energy siphon statement is actually a damn good example, and sort of works perfectly. It doesn't just solve one problem but MANY problems for MANY theories. I like it. The problem I still have is about how to actually SYPHEN ENERGY FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION. Just opening a doorway to the bio-boost dimension, I imagine, would take a tremendous amount of energy. When Sho calls the Guyver unit, the unit is ripping dimensions to get to Sho, which is fine, because the armor exists in the bio-boost dimension and hense has an unlimited amount of energy. Zoanoids would need to be bending space by their lonesome... Your theory depends on a minimal-energy method to first gather that bio-boost energy. I can't see this being done through any means, and stating things like "cells have EM fields" or "the brain is a quantum machine" doesn't really explain anything to me. And although the fact that it isn't mentioned in the book may not bother you, it bothers me. If everything was getting their energy from the bio-boost dimension, you don't think that the dimension itself would play a greater role in the book? It's like saying that all super humans get their energy from the multiverse, like how Alchemy plays a huge role in FMA or Chakra plays a huge role in Naruto... if this was the LIFEFORCE of all super powered beings, it would have been mentioned. That's just my gut feelin', ya know? Zero Point Energy is a better theory cause of the whole "no opening dimensions" thing and the "makes Guyvers unique and superior" thing. I do also have to disagree with you on Balcus' knowledge though. There's no doubt in my mind he knows EVERYTHING there is to know about Zoanoids. Yes, he had doubts about his artificial CM he created, but regardless, he created an artificial control metal that has the ability to tap into the bio-boost universe... so chances are, he knows his stuff about regular Zoanoids, which are far easier to make (I'm assuming that since humans were made to be Zoanoids, so the process should be simpler than making your own Guyver unit) Another thing: "Btw, Barcus didn't exactly create the Enzyme acid from scratch. He took an enzyme that the organism naturally uses to break down the Bio-Armor and just mass produced it to overwhelm the armor, which is more of copying than creating." Where did you get that the Enzyme is what the organism uses to naturally break down the bio-armor? I don't remember that. That makes Balcus even smarter and cooler. edit: I was under the assumption that, if we're dealing with another dimension, this suddenly makes a system OPEN, since energy can be transferred in and out of the equation. I could be wrong. I'm a Network Engineer. I only went so far in physics.

(edit: this was a response to YoungGuyver) Whoa there, calm down, I just confused what you were trying to get at. I'm getting confused cause when someone talks about converstions of mass and energy, it's usually in reference to a closed system. What you're talking about is an OPEN system. Which, by the way, is fine. Cause all you woulda had to have responded was, "yes Jukai, your initial understanding of my point was correct." I felt I was missing something because this doesn't solve the problem of where the cells were getting the energy, which is what we were debating. So your idea just seemed a bit misplaced. Also, you keep mentioning virtual particles. Care elaborating on that? Not sure what you mean, and it may get some conversation going in the right direction.

Yeah, I understand it now. Unfortunately I also must disagree with it now. You're talking about putting matter into a human being that would not increase their weight noticably, yet rapidly give enough energy to put 200 pounds instantly on a human being (not to mention all the other changes that would have to take place), effectively turning them into a Gregore. This would defy that nasty "Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy" thing, which states that the "mass of the reactants must remain equal to the mass of the product" meaning if you want to turn a skinny human into a green muscle-bound wererhino, then he's gotta weigh almost the same... UNLESS there is a source of energy involved which helps the process. Only way to get around this is by using readily available energy, or by using 'open systems' where the Law of Conservation of Mass don't apply, like other dimensions. OR completely disregard the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, but I've already been yelled at for doin' that. If I used emoticons, I'd be making a sad face right now.

Not sure I get what you're going for YoungGUyver... Are you just suggesting that instead of tweaking cells to gather the energy, they put other types of nano-sized particles to gather the energy...? I mean, that's all fine and dandy, but it still doesn't explain where those things are getting the power. I mean, I guess you could say these alien proteins are accessing the boost dimension, makes more sense that way, I guess. Fills in some plot holes. I just feel like I'm missing something from your post. Re-elaborate?

White holes violate the second law of thermodynamics. The theory is that they may exist in other universes where the law does't apply. But to my knowledge, the equations that proved of white holes existances were flawed in themselves, and white holes were disproven. Even still, how can you syphon energy from something that doesn't exist in this universe? And Chi hasn't been disproven because there's nothing to disprove. It's like me telling you to disprove Leprochans. You can't, Leprochans and Chi doesn't exist. If I can't simply say that a Zoanoid's existance violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, Chi must be excluded. Also, it's important to note that Quantum Brain Dynamics is very theoretical and the majority of scientists don't believe in it, at least in the early stages it has been presented in. Regardless, using quantum field theory to explain human consciousness is a huge leap from explaining how cells are able to open up a portal to the bio-boost dimension and draw energy from it to mutate. I don't even see a parallel, but that might be because I know little about Quantum Mechanics. Also, your barrier theory doesn't work. It explains why Zoanoids can't draw energy continuously, but not why they can't do it constantly. Is there a time limit for when they can and can't access the dimension? Is there something limiting how much energy they are drawing? They have to access it everytime they transform (and assumingly, they have to empty that energy back into the bio-boost dimension since energy can't just vanish) so accessing it multiple times seems to be no problem... why can't they draw MORE power from it? The theory isn't any worse than any other theory we've delved into (that is to say they're all full of holes) but from a completely non-scientific standpoint, I don't think Zoanoids use energy from the bio-boost dimension. It would have been stated already by either Balcus or Alcanphel. I would be in absolute shock if Balcus can create viruses that can counteract Aptom or acid that can burn through the Guyver unit... but can't figure out how Zoanoids actually work. That fact, that all the superbeings in the story are tied together, is a very important fact, and if Takaya really wanted to work things this way, not only would it have been stated beforehand, but I think the bio-boost dimension would play a more pivotal role in the story since it would then be the force that ties everything in the story together. I'm leaning towards Zero Point Energy, since that has been the common 'cop-out free-energy" device that must Science Fiction stories use.

White Holes violate the laws of thermodynamics and Chi doesn't exist in any form of science. If we can't break the law of conservation of energy, then let's not start throwing out impossibles here. It would hurt mah feelins! Not exactly sure what "Matter Conversion" is, nor what there is to draw from the atmosphere, but Zero Point Energy is what the Hulk uses in the comic book (albeit a little differently, since Marvel comics says the quantum vacuum is filled with psionic energy). The Hulk is pretty much the closest thing to a Zoanoid we ca think of, I guess. edit: actually, I'm in a huge disagreement with the bio-boost dimension thing. My reasonings: a) Exactly what is opening the dimensional rift? Unless you can think of a sweet, new, energy free way to open up rifts in the space/time continuum, this is pretty much an impossibility. The Guyver unit and the human are in constant communication and the Guyver unit comes to the human, not the human opening up a rift for the Guyver unit. Unless there is something in bio-boost space for every single Zoanoid that will open up the dimensional rift for them, there's no way they can GET this energy b) why in the world would the Creators create beings that would only tap into the bio-boost dimension to transform? If they could create something that could tap into the bio-boost dimension, then every single Zoanoid could generate blasts that could rival the mega-smasher. They're too weak for me to consider this. c) why WOULD the liberatus need to go to recharge in a processing tube? No, really, if the transformation energy comes from another realm, why do they need to recharge themselves? You could get unlimited energy from the bio-boost realm, enough to transform them and give them enough energy for the rest of their lives. Also, do you think the Zoalords are in constant contact with the bio-boost dimension? I didn't get what you meant from the Zoalord statement.

Hmm.. Sorry, but to me, yes. It's just as believable to think that the Advent have broken the Law of Conservation of Energy as it is to believe that the Advent have found a way to pre-program human cells to gather energy from another dimension. They both defy conventional science. I am not completely ditching my cell embryogenesis hypothesis here. Not smart enough to develop a theory though. I'll read up and throw some questions your way.

A few comments I have after reading your post, YoungGuyver. First off, Khan did have LIMITED ability of this mass-shifting effect you speak of, as his head did poof up a bit without the help of other Zoanoids. It seems it was out of his range to grow MASSIVE sized though, without millions of Zoanoids. Because of this, we can assume that there is a LIMIT to how much a Zoanoid can 'mass-shift.' Take note of this. Another thing to note that although rapidly gaining a large amount of mass is an alien concept in the real world, small mass gain, like regeneration, is not. Reptiles, starfish, mice, even HUMANS have all shown the ability to regenerate some body parts, through cell differentiation and embryogenesis and other more scientific concepts that I can barely grasp on the surface. Obviously the regrowth process does take a lot of energy (some lizards starve to death without their tail, cause not only do their tails store energy, but they're using lots of calories to regrow their tail). But, assuming proper energy reserves (remember, they're so full fo energy that I believe the Enzyme IIIs only live a few days), could Enzyme III be using stem cells to regrow its arm? Could this process explain everything? Get to work, People smarter than me! Another thing to note, YoungGuyver, you're assuming that the Creators didn't make beings that could regrow their arms or shift into different forms... I'm going to have to go and disagree with you there. First off, we didn't see the abilities of many of the Zoanoids during the Creators time period. Many of them could be hyper-zoanoid level (none of them would be Zx-Tol or Enzyme level because they wanted these creatures to be long lived) and we knew twelve of them were going to be Zoalord level, but I don't think the Advent wanted TOO many ultra powerful Zoanoids... they wanted strength in number, not in might (better so they didn't screw up making anything too powerful, I guess). There is another reason I say that some of them may have had some mass-shifting abilities. When I was still in that EPIC BATTLE with Zeo, the man had made an interesting point that I had to acknowledge. He said that the Advent had gathered up all the data they could on different evolutions of all the creatures on earth before they began Zoa-forming. Although I still disagree with the latter, the former deffinitely holds some water. I was originally going to shout out "HEY! look at all these weird-ass Zoanoids that Chronos creates! These look nothing like past creatures that lived on the earth!" but I had to remember that Chronos and the Advents are different. If you look back at all the flashbacks of the Advent soldiers, the Zoanoids looked EXTREMELY anamalic. They range from prehistoric looking to some looking more like creatures of today. If the Creators had logged information about creatures that developed the ability to regenerate limbs, there's little doubt in my mind they put it in some of their Zoanoid creations. It would make sense, just to create an adaptable fighter. Ya know? edit: Ryuki, I know that cells cannot "store mass." But cells also can't open portals to other dimensions and gather energy. Unless someone can come up with a reasonable theory to your "potential energy" theory or my "cell embryogenesis" theory, we may have to figure this out unscientifically.

You know, it makes sense Zeo, but that in the end is also a very unscientific explanation. You're saying Chronos hardwires the ability for human cells to tap into other dimensions... I can't even fathom the process to do that. I think it's just as reasonable that the Advent were able to sorta "comptact mass" into cells, It's just as believable and much simpler. It also explains why we haven't found out that the Guyver and Zoanoids get their abilities from the same source, which would sorta be a major portion of the story... and since Chronos have made an artificial Guyver unit, I'm pretty sure they'd be aware that they're creating beings that tap into the Bio-Boost dimension. Of course, I'm not nearly smart enough to argue this scientifically

I'm almost positive that's not the case, if the Zoanoids got their energy from the bio-boost dimension, that would have been mentioned in the story already, cause that's sort of a cool theory. I'm sad to say, but the increase in mass is probably something we can never explain with real science.

Yer gonna have to, cause I don't remember that quote at all..

Yes, but my point was, the scientific explanation of "The Thing" is very clearly translated for us... and if that's where Takaya got the idea for Aptom's powers, we can probably look there for the explanation.

Ryuki, I really like your theory, but if Takaya said he's a John Carpenter fan... well, since Apton and "The Thing" are pretty much identical in how they operate, then I'm guessing the scientific explanation in The Thing is going to be Aptom's cover story.

Well, see? This is what I get for overthinking.

I still like Ryuki's theory. The virus idea is cool but it's too "all-encompassing," ya know? The virus would have to both eat away at the Zoanoid at rapid fire speed and simultaneously assimilate the genetic structure of the Zoanoid's DNA into Aptom. That really seems outside the reach of what a virus really does, which is just infect cells. There could be multiple viruses and proteins working, I guess. But giving Aptom the ability, by touch, to send nerve impulses to the brain to reconstitute the DNA of Aptom and merge it with his own DNA seems slightly less unlikely. If this is the case though, than Aptom probably CAN assimilate humans.. it's just a much greater effort. Just like the Zoalords CAN control regular humans, it's just incredibly hard and tiring. The only reason I could lean towards Aptom using some sort of virus to do his absorptions is because Zxtol had 'anti-bodies' to protect him from being absorbed by Aptom... usually the term 'anti-body' refers to something that fights off foreign infection, not to prevent the brain from acting in any sort of way. I guess it actually could be a COMBINATION of the two theories. Aptom, by touch, transmits a virus that messes with the synapsis in a Zoanoid's brain, telling the cells in that creature's body to break down and bond with the DNA in Aptom's body. This also could be why when Aptom absorbs someone, they become very veiny... it may not just be the process of absorbing nutrients from their bloodstream, but also PUMPING IN a large quantity of virus inside a Zoanoid. This also makes more sense on why a Zoacrystal and a Guyver unit will protect the wearer; it's not fighting off infection but PROTECTING THE HOSTS BRAIN! I'm not sure I remember this scene correctly (actually at this point I feel I could be making this up), but I remember that Aptom puts his hand on the Guyver's head and you see the hand sink in, and get all veiny, as if he's pumping the virus into Sho. Then, he pulls his hand away when he realizes he can't merge with the Guyver. It's because the virus couldn't muck around with the brain, cause the brain is connected to the Control Medal, and more or less, the Zoacrystal. Wow, overthinking things IS fun!

Yep, yer right, he used heat instead of electricity. I'm not sure what scene he's referring to then.

I believe it was Neo-Zxtol that forced Aptom off with an electric current.

I see where you're getting all this now. Alchanephl was viewing earth from space, and saw the asteroid at, we can assume, a relatively equa-distance away from him. Because he saw the two objects, he's able to visualize a good estimate what the collision would look like. The reason I thought it was Imurakami that was imagining the collision was because it was HIS text bubble that was next to the image... and as I said, Imurakami has no way of making a valid size comparison. That's all I was trying to say.