Decimal system problems and science.

[*Jess♥]

I have been disputing the decimal system in my head for a while...

I may have spoken to others about it once in a while, but It is always bugging me...

It is stupid.

10 does not divide evenly.

it goes like this -

10, 5, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625, 0.3125, 0.15625 .........

and so on, it's absolutely ridiculous.. why on earth we are still stuck in this senseless system is beyond my sense of reasoning.

of course a better system has been invented and is used for some things.

I actually devised a similar system myself before i actually realised that some clever guy had already done it.

it stands to reason.

to figure it out you take the base number - 1, then double it

1,2,4,8,16

now, my system was actually devised to use 8 digits only, but hexadecimal uses 16 digits.

quite useful.

you can divide evenly and that is the sensible part.

you can do any calculations with it and it works great.

well it would work great if peope could bloody use it. I mean, my head has been bent to work with ten since i was a very young child. It makes me kinda angry to think that these People have drummed this system into my head and now if i try and think of any other system i just get insanely confused.

I mean, if i try and figure out a sum in hex...... OMG my brain starts to meltdown...

I wish i could unlearn dec and learn hex it would be so much better.

but anyway, i really should get to the point of my discussion, because believe it or not, this is not just arant about numbers..

my main thoughts when making this thread is physics.

I know that pysics and indeed many schools of science use mathematics a lot.

now.... heres the main problem. if they are using the decimal system.... then there is a big bloody problem there.

it is my understanding that for as long as physics has been thought about.. you know since newton... I think they must not have had hexadecimal back then, so all the physics models are using decimal?

maybe, maybe i am wrong about all that, and they actually use hexadecimal for physics?

see, when i think about decimal and some fo the numbers they use.. it makes no sense.

like pi for example, 3.14XXXXXXXXXXXXX to the power of a million trillion infinity.

stupid, absolutely nonsensical stupidity. I would really love to know what the equivalent value of pi is in hexadecimal.

I bet it is something really easy to do.

like 3.2 or something.

of course, there is possibly someone who can read this and actually tell me what it is and then is gonna tell me that i'm stoned and am talking gibberish.

(i never touched any of that stuff for the record)

but anywa, i was thinking that if they take all these nonsense mnumbers and convert them to hex, then they might just get a load of really clever numbers that are easy to remember and will fix everyones headache once and for all.

then when they have got their super dooper numbers, they can go back and figure out their phsyics systems and realise that when they got their numbers wrong it was because tehy are using really long and stupid nonsesne numbers like pi.

then they will get their sums right, and will be able to figure out warp travel and stuff like that.

well it's ben a while since i wrote anything like this. I hope you enjoy my thoughtas and i hope it inspireds some interesting thoughts of your own

EDIT:

please oh please, I do not want anybody to give the smart aleck remark "we use decimal because we have ten fingers"

I think that much is obvious. :wink:

[largo]

Well in physics the decimal system is used but mostly scientific notation is used for really big numbers and what not. And as for someone who could help you with this I would suggest looking up a friend of mine from the WarriorGuyver forum by the name zeo1234 he pretty much knows everything or at least can find out for you. And since I think your drag-5 account is still active over there I suggest you go over there and ask him.

[Guest DaMoe]

Well, think about it like this.

We use the decimal system for the same reason we use the 24hours-60minutes-60seconds time measurement, or the annoying 365.25 day year which always creates that annoying extra day, which realistically means that every 4 years your birthday should be one day earlier.

We use these systems because years ago, somebody thought them up to try and make some human sense out of the universe, and they've been passed down for years and we have grown up to think they are the 'main' system.

I'm not really sure what you were asking for in your post, so im gonna cover a few scenarios

You want to blame someone for making you used to the decimal system? Blame the education system

You want to try and give rise to the Octal number system (the system that uses a base of 8)? Power to you, who knows, you may change the world someday

You want to understand why it is that the decimal system is so popular? Look into the history of the decimal system and why it arose

You want to improve the decimal system? Again, power to you.

PS.

I'm choosing to interpret your post as a cry against the decimal system with that being the purpose of the post, if there is another meaning to your post then please clarify. If you were just trying to start a discussion then i can roll with that.

Also, its ironic that you're mentioning the Octal system, thats one of the topics on my exam tomorrow!

[*Jess♥]

yeah, thanks for your support

you are right about the hows and the whys...

I think the main point is mostly to be an advocate to the octal system.

mainly though I am looking for knowledge.. seeing as I am simply not good enough with maths to figure these things out for myself...

of course, I have always been poor to maths due to that same thing that is always causing me problems. that dyslexia.

so I was hoping for somebody to be able to tell me a couple of things like what the hex or oct equivalent to pi is.

also I was hoping for an answer to what science uses, which I now have an answer to so thanks to largo for that

I would like to get zeo1234 on here to answer these, I don't want to start the same discussion in two separate plaecs as I will get very confused.

I would really like to try and learn how to use this kind of system in my head.

I would really like to give it a go, but that kind of thing is something to dedicate an entire lifetime to and I have so much to do that I feel could be more important.

of course, I could always attempt to prompt somebody else to go down that path through some of the media that I intend to produce.

[Guest Miyamoto Musashi]

I don't think I could ever get my head around using a octal number system since deciman is just so deeply ingrained but its never sat well with me that we have decimals that are reoccuring.

I mean its essentially just a fraction in a different layout but how can a fraction be infinite if it is suppose to be a part of a whole.

Well its all a bit too clever for me so i'll just watch avidly from the sidelines

[S Naught]

I'm majoring in math, and whatever you're on, I need some too to alleviate this stress from exams.

Seriously though, tell me if I'm wrong. What you're saying in your first post is: We could achieve warp speed faster if only we could add more effectively. That is more preposterous than the explanation of "We use giant robots because we can't use radar (Mobile Suit Gundam)."

Science is in the theory. Nothing changes if we change base. The law of gravity will always apply. The science will always be there. It might be easier to calculate small numbers, but with enormously large numbers, we use a computer. Even when counting in base 10. We just need to understand the theory of other bases so we can program a computer to calculate in a more efficient manner.

Pi is not a nonsense number. It is the ratio of the length around it divided by the length across. It's used in everything relating to circles. Just how e is used in the natural growth or organisms, and radical 2 is used in finding subspaces.

Pi, e, and radical 2 are irrational no matter what base they are. Meaning they will go on forever without ending in a repeating pattern. This is the formula for pi in binary (base 2). http://www.lacim.uqam.ca/~plouffe/

I wouldn't try to convert it to hex even if you paid me.

Also, as a reply to largo, scientific notation is base 10.

1.0 x 10^9 is just an easier way to write one million.

In practical applications, it might be easier to class large numbers of things by how many digits it has (if it has 10 digits, then it must be greater than or equal to one million). If you were to class hex, then you'd have to class large numbers by multiples of 8.

Most of you are griping because it's been hard programmed into our heads. Has anyone given any thought to the fact that the ratio of ease to learn / practicality is pretty good.

Anyways, the reason why we may use base 10 is as varied as the ideas of creationism. Just as how I can't prove there wasn't a human undead in the Battle Royale, I can't tell you why we primarily use base ten. I can tell you why anyone uses any base though.

Base 2 (binary) is used for computing. Computers can only recognize open/closed because of the way they're built (originally using vacuum tubes). We use successive strings of 1's and 0's to give command prompts to compile code. For the lot of you, these lines of code really quickly translate to your screen as a quick succession of different colored pixels to create an image.

Base 12 (duodecimal) was used because it was so easy to divide. That's why we count baked goods in duodecimal. For sharing. Sharing is good right? It's also freaking easy to do the basic operations in, and the only one easier than doing it in decimal in my opinion.

Base 16 (hexadecimal) is the spiritual successor to base 2. It had the numbers 0 to 9 and then letters A to F. Used to represent binary data in large amounts (sorta confusing, but lets say it allows for faster computing than first gen computers).

Base 60 (sexagesmal) is the spiritual successor to base 12 (using base 12 was bad to batch large numbers, so they used 5x12). It was used by ancient civilizations since time revolved around 60. They apparently disappeared.

Now here's the non-scientific bases. They were mainly used because they were formed from our cognitive ways of learning. Since we had parents/tv/super Sentai to teach us how to count, things came easy. But how about the early humans? They had to learn things from scratch.

Base 5 (hand). Hmm, wonder why it's called that.

Base 8 (octal). This one is pretty recent, since it was used by Proto-Indo European cultures. Reason being there are 8 spaces between our fingers.

Base 10 (decimal). We have ten fingers. I refer you to that Family Guy episode where Future Stewie went back in time to see Jesus, and all he could do was that trick where you shifted fingers from one hand to the other. It's at timestamp 1:15 in this youtube upload http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBZQfAYfH7s

Just disregard the fact that they have four fingers.

Base 20 (vegisimal) because we have 10 fingers and 10 toes. It was used by the Mayan civilization.

So pretty much, the numbers we used to count are based on any given civilization's perception of counting. Since the Mayans and Babylonians are gone, we exclusively learn base 10.

So yeah, in conclusion, we count in decimal because we have ten fingers. We could count in binary because we have 2 eyes, two ears, two arms and two legs (supplementary gattai parts). Or we can count in unitary because we have 1 heart or one head. Heck, if we evolved into optopi, we'd be counting in octal in no time.

And I just remembered your problem with dividing in base 10. Why on earth would you divide that much? Sharing is the main motivator for dividing. Do you have that many friends that mooch off of you at once? Sharing is why beer comes in packs of 6 and cases of 24. (12/2, 12/2x4)

edit: wow, this is my 64th post. that's the first large batch in of hex in base 10.

Edited April 19, 2007 by S Naught

[*Jess♥]

WOW! that's so much information!!

I am gonna find it hard to reply....

I am thinking about what you said about computers and science... see thats where I have the problems.. because using large numbers with computers, you end up having them use FLOPS... and that is certainly not good by any count...

but then... if they use full calculations i still think it is a bit silly because decimal does not translate easily into computer memory locations.

with memory locations, you have byte which is to do with the number 8....

now I can't wuite remember if it was 8 memory locations, or 8 possible outcomes.... but either way, 10 doesn't fit in there anywhere.

also, I think that Pi is a nonsesne number because you can't write it down.

tha fact that it is infinite.... means you can NEVER get an accurate definition for it.

It is impossible, thus making it an impossible number.. making it nonsense.

well I suppose it isn't nionsesne because you can write down a representation of it in some notation.

but the point is, if you want to figure stuff out.. like the size of a planet or whatever.. or figure out the size of a photon.. you can't do it because you can't give an accurate number for pi.

oh well if these numbers are irrational whatever base they are, then i can't argue anything about that...

well i can say I think it's wrong, but then I am not really basing anything on that, so that just becomes my own ignorant personal opinion.

uhm...

oh yeah, so I wasn't talking about obvious stuff or anything.. I mean the philosophy of science is sound..

I have a LOT of ideas about time and space and dimensions and stuff.. but I was referrig to complexe physics that they all only use maths for..

that kind of science where the only proof they have of anything is some maths.

I personally don't think it is much of evidence... because these things are flawed.. relativity is flawed... I don't know exactly how myself, i just know it. that for one scale.. universe and that.. the numbers work, but for sub atomic scale the number don't work...

that was what i was thinking.

[largo]

Wow I think my brain is going to explode from data overload. I'm good at math and all but I think this is a very reason why I'm Political Science major.

[*zeo]

Actually pi isn't infinite, I forgot how decimal places it goes to but a couple of years ago someone actually calculated pi to last decimal. It just seemed infinite because before then no one had a computer powerful enough to calculate pi to the last digit.

Besides calculating planetary figures is rounded off in any case since we can't know the exact mass or shape of a planet without measuring every single atom and structure of the planet.

Anyway, S Naught, since you're a math major what do you think of this?, http://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20010.5.shtml

Of course we could start discussing mathematical proofs and then really blow everyone's minds

Oh, and here's a little history summary for base 10, http://www.psinvention.com/zoetic/base10.htm

Edited April 19, 2007 by zeo

[*Jess♥]

thanks for the info zeo

so what do you think about science and physics and that and how they might behave if they used an octal system instead of decimal?

and also, do you happen to know if pi is an easier number if it is caluclated in octal or hexadecimal?

[largo]

Yep I knew Japan-Legend could use a little Zeo.

[*zeo]

thanks for the info zeo

so what do you think about science and physics and that and how they might behave if they used an octal system instead of decimal?

and also, do you happen to know if pi is an easier number if it is caluclated in octal or hexadecimal?

Easier is relative as each base has it's own way to calculate formulas and it all depends on what you are calculating to which is actually easier. For PI though in most cases the only difference is what numbers you end up with. Like HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy joke about the number 42 for example.

Bases aside the principles of mathematics remains the same for each base. The main advantage is some bases may allow certain formulas to have fewer or more steps to calculate any given value.

The link I asked S Naught to check out has a formula for calculating PI in base 16 that seems easier than in other base systems for example. The main advantage being it allows you to calculate any N-th digit without having to calculate the previous digits. But you are still calculating PI one digit at a time.

But math, like any language, is constantly evolving and similar to languages some forms will be favored over others as time goes on.

Though remember change doesn't come easy to humans otherwise we would all be using the metric system and calculate distance in km instead of miles

[*Jess♥]

heh heh, you're not wrong there!!!

I still measure height in ft and weight in stones.

I see it then.....

so the base doesn't make too much difference. ..

but it is better in some circumstances.. so it is good to have a variety?

wow, thats like...

hey when humans have developed to be more intelligent, then humans will be able to work with differnt bases all at the same time!!

[S Naught]

Ryuki

You didn't notice what I was trying to tell you. We won't get to an era of giant robots and lightspeed travel any quicker just because kids can add and multiply faster.

And even picking octal is flawed. It's easiest to do mathematical operations in duodecimal. It's just easier to group large numbers in decimals because we can use number of digits as an accurate measure.

And it is likely that our perception of science is flawed, but it will take a lot of hard work and rigorous proof to correct it. Remember how long it took to convince the world that it was round? We only thought it was flat because of what we see.

Also, in practicality in math, when we calculate the circumference of a circle, we say it's 4 times pi or something. We don't actually multiply 4 x 3.14 out. It's a waste of time on a low level. Physicists must do it for accurate measurements though.

Zeo

I find it easier and more fruitful to memorize pi than to calculate it. So far I'm up to 175 digits. I got on my city news by reciting 130 digits on pi day (march 14, 1:59 pm) at my university. And pi is infinite. By current standards anyways. What you saw, can it be found again? Computer programs as they are right now can only find pi to about 4 billion digits.

Here's the mathematical definition of rational: A number when put into decimal form, eventually has repeating digits.

1/3 is rational, 0.6666....

5 is rational 5.0000000...

1/4 is rational 0.250000...

If the digits "ended", then a succession of zero's would follow. If Pi ended, that would make Pi rational. Everyone knows pi is irrational. There is a flaw somewhere.

[*zeo]

Here's a link to a news article about it, http://www.watleyreview.com/2004/062904-3.html

About 3 years ago, but it's okay if you haven't heard about it. A lot of scientist and mathematicians are in denial about it even though the team that discovered the last digit ran the calculations 3 times.

Just goes to show you can't assume something is infinite just because you gave up calculating it after a certain number.

[S Naught]

Sigh...please read the disclaimer. http://www.watleyreview.com/About.html

Just goes to show you can't assume something on the internet is true.

Edited April 19, 2007 by S Naught

[*zeo]

True but I originally read it on the NYTimes. Though that isn't saying much as well.

And some work has been done in alternate forms of calculating PI and similar, http://www.lacim.uqam.ca/~plouffe/Simon/articlepi.html

Edited April 19, 2007 by zeo

[*Jess♥]

Ryuki

You didn't notice what I was trying to tell you. We won't get to an era of giant robots and lightspeed travel any quicker just because kids can add and multiply faster.

I did notice and I actually had a very long and nice reply for you...

but for some reason my computer is tuirning into a retarded piece of drenn.. and threw my post out the window....

I will sum my piost up and say that

I do read everything.. but sometimes I get caught up in somerthing else...

also I tend to over exaggerate just because it's fun also because i don't know much about real world applications of these things.

[S Naught]

Zeo:

Yeah, finding ways to calculate pi is as varied as the digits themselves, though it's not very useful. It's only a good measure of how l33t your supercomputer is. And how good you are if you can memorize to 40,000 like these men can.

http://pi-world-ranking-list.com/lists/memo/index.html

Ryuki:

Yeah, I do that too. In fact, I try to put sarcastic or inside jokes into as many posts as I can. So much so I forget certain small things to reply to.

Edited April 19, 2007 by S Naught

[*Jess♥]

I split the topic at this point, because at this stage the posts came to be more focused on specifics of pi and it's calculations.

[largo]

Hey now Zeo and S Naught wow now I'm sure we can come up with a perfectly resonible battle of the super geeks in a nice friendly manner.

[*zeo]

Sure.

Edited April 20, 2007 by zeo

[largo]

Sure.

Sorry about that didn't see the elite pi post.

[*zeo]

*BUMP*

In case no one else posts to this topic here's just something so we can leave on topic, http://www.dotlessbraille.org/numbersystems.htm