Human hair, nails and makeup

[Guest]

When the armor isn't in use it's stored in the boost dimension.

When the armor is being used, it looks like it is simply wrapping around the host. It kind of sounds like you are saying it is dimensionally phasing through anything that would get in the way, such as clothing and shoes.

That would be an interesting idea. If the armor were to phase combine, perhaps if healing damage to the armor would be simply pulling it's cells back in place the clothing would be repaired. But when generating replacment cells, the scraps of clothing is lost, and hence remains damaged. So total regeneration of a host would leave a naked host. I still don't like the phasing idea, but it's interesting.

Oh, and this is the theory section of the board. Let's not get into Schrodinger's cat discussions about logic please. I really hate those.

[*zeo]

Logic is the interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable. Simply following scientific procedure on the process of elimination we can infer that the Creators did not have clothing. Comparing clothing to the Guyver Unit is false since the Guyver unit is a living device, clothing is a far more primitive concept and is not alive. The Creators could control their environment and with the Guyver unit they had no need for any physical adaptation to adapt to environments. Additionally if the Creators had the concept of clothing they would have clothed their creations but they did not. All the ancient humans and Alkanphel himself were left totally nude. We clothed ourselves, the Creators never bothered and never had a need to.

Besides it strengthens my arguement that the Creators had no cloths by pointing out the Guyver Unit YoungGuyver. They never needed anything as primitive as clothing and since the unit already served far better the function of protecting the host it would be a waste for the Unit to even try adapting to something that is not part of the host like clothing.

As for fallacy, it is fallacy to assume the Unit would regenerate clothing when their is no scientific bases for that assumption. Neither the Guyver technology nor what we know of the Creators backs that assumption.

Clarification on human DNA, human DNA is not as simple as many think. Previously it was thought DNA was the sole source of our complexity but after the GENOME project we have learned that our DNA is not so complex but rather we produce more complex forms of protein molecules that grant's us a more complex level of interaction than the DNA alone provides. DNA is just the basis for everything, but there are two levels above it that allow for complex lifeforms such as ourselves. The complexity of the protein types our body produces is one, the next and final level is the EM field our cells produce. MRI's have shown us that the human body produces complex fields in the pattern and shape of our organs and body shape. Scans of people with recently lost limbs still produce fields in the shape and form of the lost limb for up to several weeks after the fact. Lab research that altered this field also altered the pattern of growth of cultured cell samples indicating this as a valid factor of considerations. So when refering to DNA I am only refering to the basic base level that everything on then bases itself on. Blood cells may not have DNA but they are produced by the body just like everything else in our body, including hair and nails which is a natural function of our bodies which is the point I was trying to make.

This all explains how the Unit can retain information on scar tissue, hair length, and such as any long time damage would not only be reflected in our DNA, due also to the damage, but also to the body's EM field which would have reflected the pattern of the scar.

But cloths have no DNA and non-living things do not produce the complex chemical and EM fields that living things produce so the Unit would not have what it needs to base the regeneration of cloths upon. And before reverting to host mind for including clothing, how many of you know the molecular pattern of clothing? And you expect the unit to both know this and remember it on top of all the host and unit data without even having a clear way of scanning the clothing each and every time the unit is activated?

The Unit itself, the gravity orb may not be organic but it has the pattern to base itself upon in the CM. There is no bases for that for clothing and no reason yet given the Unit would include clothing patterns into its database even if it could generate the materials the cloths are made of.

As for the memory example, the CM is wired directly into the host brain and can easily update itself on host memory upon activation without updating its entire data upon the host. The very fact the unit stores itself dimensionally allows it to always be in mental contact with the host through the Telepathic organism.

Simply because the unit updates host memories does not mean it updates everything. The Creators waited eons for the natural evolution of the human mind, the body was never a big concern for them. For such a cerebral race such as the Creators and factors such as the CM unimind the only thing the Unit would really concern itself about updating would be the host mind. The physical body is just a tool to be maintained, without the mind it is useless.

As argued before about the possibility the Guyver host are basically immortal the possibility the host physical form being updated is limited at best. Even to the extend I argued for about the possibility of growing to adulthood before the host stops aging does not extend the possibility to include the data on clothing.

As for the unit getting past the clothing, phasing is a possibility but the unit got past the clothing at the time of bonding when both it and the host were both is normal space time.

Remember clothing is not a solid impentratable barrier, it is composed of fibers and such so has pores and spaces that a shape shifting organism like the Guyver organism can easily slip through. The only significant barrier would be the shoes because of the toes. Phasing could explain this or the unit could simply absorb the cloths and unabsorb them upon deactivation.

[Guest]

ok it's now 4.32am and I'm in no state to make a good arguement.

Just to clarify I never said that clothing regen was a fact... I just believe that it could be possible for a symbiotic life form as advanced as the guyver to restore a fundamental part of the host conscious security.

I don't want to say this again as I'm very suprised that no one picked up on it the first time but... WHEN HAVE THE CREATORS MADE OR HAD ANY CLAIM TO ACTUALLY CREATING THE BIO-BOOSTER ARMOUR? Murakami says that he suspects the armour was created by genetic manipulations somewhere out in space or something like that. As far as I know we have no answers as to where or who created it. We just assumed, because of the Creators nature, that they created the armour however its possible that since they used the armour for so long before we even existed that they recieved it from another source.

I'll be back soon with a lengthy response to the last post but until then I'd like to say thanks to Naguiel for starting this topic off. It didn't seem like such a controversial thing when you first wrote it did it.

P.s Thanks for all the theories and opinions. They all seem to have some really good ideas/truths in them.

"There is some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth" (Animatrix; kids story)

[*Jess♥]

Zeo1234 Wrote:

But cloths have no DNA and non-living things do not produce the complex chemical and EM fields that living things produce so the Unit would not have what it needs to base the regeneration of cloths upon. And before reverting to host mind for including clothing, how many of you know the molecular pattern of clothing? And you expect the unit to both know this and remember it on top of all the host and unit data without even having a clear way of scanning the clothing each and every time the unit is activated?

how many people know the mollecular structure of water? or carbon? The guyver can reproduce these materials when regenerating a host. why not regenerate silk? or wool? the host does not have the genetic makeup of bacteria in its dna or those other things you mentioned. the guyver can, though, make these bacteria. as hair is dead, it is a 'non living thing' so why does the guyver remember the length of hair? If the guyver can recreate materials it has no 'molecular pattern' for, and remember the shape and configuration of 'non living things' then it is certainly capable of recreating clothes. i don't want to hear arguments of 'things that aren't necessary' hair isn't necessary. thats why we are the bald ape. it seems that the guyver is capable of recreating clothes but would it bother? It bothers to recreate hair. the host doesn't need hair but why does the guyver bother? for the same reason the guyver bothers to recreate hair i believe that the guyver, given time, would bother to make clothing. maybe its not priority 1, but it is in the priority list somewhere.

[Guest]

Wow... Yeh that was err... exactly what I was gonna say... Thanks for making a decent arguement... It saves me the hassle.

[*zeo]

Actually drag-5 that isn't a valid arguement. Besides the fact you are refering to the part of my argument that only addresses the fact some think the host mind would make the unit regenerate the cloths. You ignored the segment on how our DNA on up works and how the unit can retain information on hair length and scar tissue.

Everything living in the human body has either DNA or RNA, everything else is produced from those living parts of us. And btw we have the genetic makeup of all living things on this planet in our DNA, we don't use all of our DNA a lot of it is left over from our evolution but we share DNA with just about all life on the planet with a shared ancestory going back to when we were all basically bacteria.

Neither did I say that when the Unit stores the DNA of the host that it limits itself to just those directly responsible for the us. I do expect everyone on the board to actually think these things through on their own. We evolved symbiotically with a host of lifeforms. Every complex lifeform on the planet shares DNA with each other.

Even our individual cells, the mitochondria was originally a sperate lifeform that merged with the first cells and allowed, thanks to the energy they generated, for the later evolution of more complex lifeforms. Besides aside from a stem cell no one cell in our body has our entire DNA.

Simply put without a way to store the data of a materia it CAN NOT be recreated.

We don't have as much body hair as apes because we evolved that way to avoid lice and other parasites, not to mention the planet was a lot warmer when our primitive ancestors evolved to walk upright and run long distances due to a super nova that was just close enough to alter the planet's climate way back then. We retained head hair to keep our brains warm but like some other parts of our body we don't really need it to survive anymore but they persist because the DNA for their formation is still within our makeup.

To make this more clear everything the Guyver creates is from a pattern it has stored the data for. So without a means to acquire the data for cloths, each and every time the unit is used since the host does change clothing, then it simply is not logical to believe the unit would regenerate clothing.

I already explained why hair and nails are different from cloths, you can ignore the science if you want but you can't change the facts. Besides if Takaya had wanted the unit to regenerate clothing he would have shown it doing so already. You may believe it possible but this is the science section so you have to back up that believe with logical reasoning.

[Guest]

I basically agree with Zeo on a lot of this.

It is official that the control metal stores all the human data, and without that data the armor would return to a unit-g state. Human data-that's the closest translation I got, or rather the one I paid for. That's pretty generic.

I'm guessing that the armor takes something like a magnetic resonance snap shot of the host to see what goes where. It would map out scars, find any symbiots, and would have to be detailed enough to keep track of the DNA.

The tough part is deciding where to limit the scan. Any scanning beam is probebly going to brush up against things that aren't apart of the host. If the unit-g is made for a variety of alien species, it needs to come up with a basic definition of what is a host body. The grass you stand on for instance is alive, yet isn't a part of the host. How would any scanning beam know that? How would any tendrils wrapping around the host know that?

Zeo, I'm going to borrow and tweak for a second. This magneto-fieldy thingy... The one that is generated by the body, and co-exists with DNA to help guide cellular growth into patterns of tissues into organs. Well, anything that is with the host long enough will be affected by this field, and will affect it in return. This include parasites, microbial symbiots, scars, heart, lungs, and stuff. What if the unit-g scans across this magnety field to form an image map of the host?

Of coarse, we keep changing clothes when we do laundry, so regular clothing wouldn't be that integrated into the field. It wouldn't be classified as a part of the host. Unless of coarse you are an otaku that wears the same thing everyday.

Hair and fingernails, although dead, should still be exposed to our bio-magnetion field. Thus, they should be included.

Oh, and now I'm going to disagree with you Zeo.

The guyver 0 flashback showed cave men zoanoid that wore animal skins while in human form. Animal skins are bio based, a form of clothing, and as far as I know translation wise, there's nothing to say the creators didn't suggest it to them.

We've never actually seen the creators, so although they are advanced, we have no idea what they don't wear.

I agree that the boost armor eliminate necessity for clothes, but after development, there is a cultural aspect to it. Walking through high school, the girls have definetly learned to master it's use to highlight sexual curvature. It can be very enticing. Even after it's use to protect us from the elements, we have developed other applications. Includeing toolbelts too. And pockets, you cannot forget pockets.

On the other hand, Earth was a test tube for them. Humans usually keap their test tubes as sterile as possible. I doubt they would contaminate us very much with something as trivial as clothing. But still, I'd say it can go either way on wether or not the creators still use it.

[*zeo]

Remember YoungGuyver, you once argued against me on the adaptability of the Guyver Unit. It seems on this particular point our stances are reversed

Ok lets not forget a few very important factor when it comes to primitive humans, namely that even in the Guyver universe they evolved and survived on this planet on their own long before the Creators decided we finally developed to the point they could use us as weapons. Up until we finally showed up in the evolutionary ladder the most the Creators did was arrange mass extinctions with the occassional moon size impact to eliminate any evolutionary dead ends. So animal skins are hardly a sign of alien influence. The Creators only cared about our brain, everything else was just raw material.

Now for the Creators to have used clothing you would have to assume the Creators evolved along the similar evolutionary lines as ourselves to have any need or want for clothing for any reason, cultural or otherwise.

We know for example that at least one Relic maintained a liquid filled environment and probably spent eons exploring the universe, not an environment that lends itself to wearing anything unessential. Not to mention factors such as their unimind that would eliminate individual need to be all different... All factors that makes it improbable that the Creators would have used anything like what we would call clothing or even tool belts.

Also consider the Creators are beings capable of influencing their environment with nothing but their will, even to the point that they could warp space and send a moon from somewhere else and use it as a weapon. They would have no need for such simple physical concerns as clothing . . . Besides Alkanphel is the real test for your line of reasoning YoungGuyver and he was not given clothing of any type.

Besides we know the Guyver Unit does remove anything that would obstruct it like handcuffs, etc. so there is very little room for anyone using a unit to wear or carry anything. Though a real test would be to see if any of the Guyvers wears a lot of clothing, like artic suvival gear clothing, and see if the unit accepts the extra mass or destroys it as an obstruction. But as to the matter of regeneration, I can see no way the Unit would be able to include enough data on the cloths, each and everytime it was activated, to regenerate the clothing. At the very least you would need cloths made of actual living tissue to really make it a possibility and we don't yet have the technology to do that.

Really, if I thought it was even remotely possible I wouldn't be argueing so strongly against this idea.

[Guest]

Ok please stop ignoring my valid points and listen please...

1. Who said the creators made the Bio-booster armour? (We have no evidence to sugest they made the armour. All we know for sure is that they used it as an 'intergral part of their armourment' and that it was created by genetic manipulation somewhere out in space.

2. We don't have to assume the creators had a similar evolution to ours or that they had some kind of garments. We instead assume that the CM learns on a molecular level and therefore can indentify and replicate new cells as it comes in contact with them just as it can learn human DNA patterns when in contact despite the differences this DNA and genetic structure has to creators.

Oh yeh by the way... a flaw in my phase idea. Scrap that then

[*Jess♥]

I already explained why hair and nails are different from cloths, you can ignore the science if you want but you can't change the facts. Besides if Takaya had wanted the unit to regenerate clothing he would have shown it doing so already. You may believe it possible but this is the science section so you have to back up that believe with logical reasoning.

I have a good response to this but it will have to wait til tomorrow.

hold that thought!

[Sully]

Time to conclude this. You've until I next view this topic to do so. So close your arguments now.

[*zeo]

I have a good response to this but it will have to wait til tomorrow.

hold that thought!

Better hurry, won't be long before Brian locks the topic.

Ok please stop ignoring my valid points and listen please...

1. Who said the creators made the Bio-booster armour? (We have no evidence to sugest they made the armour. All we know for sure is that they used it as an 'intergral part of their armourment' and that it was created by genetic manipulation somewhere out in space.

2. We don't have to assume the creators had a similar evolution to ours or that they had some kind of garments. We instead assume that the CM learns on a molecular level and therefore can indentify and replicate new cells as it comes in contact with them just as it can learn human DNA patterns when in contact despite the differences this DNA and genetic structure has to creators.

Oh yeh by the way... a flaw in my phase idea. Scrap that then

Okay Maverik, you want us to review your theory then we will.

1-The question as to who created the Guyver Unit has never been in doubt. The only thing not known is where they got the Guyver organism from. But however they acquired the organism they bio-engineered it into the Guyver Unit with their CM technology. Ergo they Created the Guyver Unit. There is no way around that, everything from the Guyver Unit to the Relic to the Unit remover has a CM and is thus Creator technology.

Then there is the rogue Sho clone which most definitely showed us that the Guyver Unit is not the natural state of the Guyver organism. The Guyver may be living technology but it is technology none the less.

All of which is academic to the simple fact of the Guyver Unit's purpose and function.

2-There is a reason why living organism use DNA, quite frankly it is the most compact way to store data molecularly. You can assume all you want but that doesn't change the science upon which the process must follow in order to fulfill the function of the Guyver Unit. It was made from the start to bond to a living sentient being and it does not matter what world that being came from as long as they are sentient and living for the Guyver Unit to bond to them. Differences in DNA is irrevelant as long as all the lifeforms capatable with the Guyver Unit use DNA.

All the Creator technology is based around the control and manipulation of organic based living material. Quite simply clothing is not compatable with that technology.

Sure it would be nice if the Unit could regenerate clothing but wanting something does not make it come true. I.E.> The Unit had months to regenerate Sho's clothing while he was cocooned, scenes like when Balcus sensed something alive within the cocoon shows that Sho was already regenerated within, but when the Unit finally disengaged it left him naked. So even given months the Unit did not regenerate so much as his underwear.

As I said before, I simply don't see the regeneration of clothing to be part of the unit's capabilities.

[Guest]

Um, I'm kind of confused on the stances thing. Please PM me or something.

I think too much is being assumed about the creators. All we know for sure is that they sent a group control metal signal through the relic to Alkanphel.

The relics are liquid filled, the Ark is not. Star's page says the Ark was planned by the creators.

It might be said that the creators are among the stars, that might be interpreted as on a ship, or on a planet of a different star.

A unit-remover was kept very close to just three units, suggesting prominence. They might not be boosted all the time.

Alkanphel was naked, yep. So what. When a snow storm happens, the creators aren't going to make minor programming changes.

The creators curbed evolution on Earth. No doubt. They cleaned up the test tubes with meteors, no doubt. But just saying they controlled evolution is a bit vague. Inside Relics, we see humans, dinosaurs, zoanoids, fairies, all in birth pods. I think they might have made some genetic changes along the way.

Point is, what we know about them is vague. I might be missing some translations, I havn't read the summaries on Star's site in quite a while. If you could point out the volume where something specific is mentioned I'll read the summary if you like.

I think that's all I have to say on that.

And I think I'm more than done on fingernails and hair. and definetly clothing. No clothes.

[Guest]

Dag nam it!!! Ok you got me on that one... I meant the organism within the guyver.

OK Zeo It's 4:32am and as I'm sure this topic will be done soon I conseid to you.

I'd like to say that the guyver can reproduce clothes and fight the good fight for all who support this theory but my fingers are now raw to the bone and my head has slumped onto my keyboard...

You are truly a worthy advisary Zeo. Thanks for the good arguement

On a final note... It might not be fact but... but it's a definate, maybe possibility... yeh thats right... ha... haha (Sniff)

[*zeo]

Okay YoungGuyver, I don't know what you mean by stances but as to the rest...

The Ark may have been made from plans left by the Creators but it was made from the remains of a destroyed Relic and Bio-Engineered by Kronos.

Also consider the Ark was designed to be a War Ship, I.E. it was meant for human use so its environment would not necessarily reflect what the Creators would use.

On Alkanphel , the point is he was left naked. If the Creators had any concern for clothing for cultural if not biological reasons then they would have clothed him. They did not.

The examples of lifeforms contained within the Relic could have simply been samples they kept from each evolutionary stage. The fact they covered widely seperate evolutionary time periods makes that the more probable case but remember G0 fought a zoanoid who took the form of a T-Rex so what was shown could also have been simply the blending of DNA from different species to produce the zoaform.

It has been suggested that the Creators may not have actually ever set foot on Earth but if their telepathy is anything like Zoalord telepathy then they definitely have a range limit that needs to be explained before we start placing them too far from Earth when they conducted their experiments here.

But even with vague details about the Creators we still have their artifacts of their technology to draw conclusion about their technology and culture. Many forms of science often deals with vague details, I.E.> Our knowledge of dinosaurs for example, there are few whole fossils found on any particular species but that doesn't stop science from filling in the gaps through the scientific process and reasoning.

Similarly if new data is discovered I will alter my position to reflect the effect of the new information but until then I have to work with what is available and at this time that leaves me with the conclusion that regeneration of cloths is not within the purview of the Guyver Unit as I presently understand it.

And yes, I agree YoungGuyver, no more debating cloths

But just to play devils advocate lets discuss whether the unit would regenerate the contents of the host stomach, particularly just after a big meal. Would the host regenerate with a full stomach? (j/k)

[*Jess♥]

topic conluded, i believe.

[*zeo]

Hmm, close but not quite the solid proof you're thinking it is.

Let's see, three volumes apart and from difference points of view, note also the injury is near his armpit which is not fully visible in the other panel, in a Manga that is known to miss details in some panels that show up in later panels. Besides the deactivation sequence is not the best to observe detail as Takaya already has lots to draw with all the unit parts flying everywhere... So nope topic not concluded, you would have to show a third panel where the area in question is fully visible for that to be proof but I'm not going to debate it anymore. You are free to believe what you want, it is a fictional character after all. But the fact Takaya shows gaps in clothing at all goes against your argument.

Btw, there are parts of the Manga where the art has been altered.

Besides, regenerating cloths would mean the unit constantly updates host data every single time it is activated and that would mean the host would be allowed to age and eventually grow old and die, not absolutely but it does make that a likely possibility. It would also mean the unit would allow host to acquire new scars, tattoos, etc.

[Sully]

Either that or Takaya forgot to draw it. Either way until he says in a data file "Yes it can or can't". Topic locked. He who dares bring it up again without a translated data file from an English edition of the Guyver will be striked.