Pressure cannon

[Guest]

First off I'd like to ask aboutsome interpretations I've seen of the Pressure cannon exploding its target. Maybe I'm missing something but from what I've seen it makes nice clean over penetration style holes in things. Is there somewhere this explosive effect is shown I'm just unaware of?

As Young Guyver has explained to us its operating priciple involves the creation of a small singularity. As we can see when G3 hits Zektoll with one on page 144-145 of Dark Masters when it pushes Zektoll back at least a foot despite his impact absorbing armor, bracing himself, and mass it also has some quite noticeable momentum to it. Page 108 of Revenge of Chronos confirms that the triple pulse, one handed at that by Guyver 1 is part of manga canon. The guys head, mid left chest, and lower right chest are all hit before his transformation can get anywhere.

While not a blast field Guyver 1 did use his Gravity Control System, as I dub it, to blast Dyme off despite being thoroughly entangled on pages 140-141 of Revenge of Chronos, which is consistant with Agito's ability to blast a hole in the ceiling in Data 3 by using his Gravity Control System without using a pressure cannon blast.

We of course also know that the system is used for the burrowing capability.

[Guest]

From what we gather (I forget what my notes say exactly, and I'm too lazy with this cough to check on the exact translation), the purpose of the black hole is to gather up enough atmosphere. The black hole gathers up so much and keeps it under high pressure. It is the break down of the black hole that releases all of this atmosphere, that was under so much pressure that it is explosive.

Very interesting points on the blast field effects. Guyver 1 went for over 15 volumes before discovering the tunneling ability. Perhaps a regular guyver can summon a blast field at will afterall

[Guest]

Since im too bloody cheap to get myself the manga, Im gonna go on hearsay and the anime. But if the guyver can control gravity in more ways than just a pressure cannon, pressure shield, and flying, he COULD make a blast feild, but it would be purely gravitationaly based. Unless of course its a tool of such scope and power, that it can create by products of intense and unatural gravitational forces that it creates heat, light, and sound...

[jedi-guyver]

They do its the pressure cannon shield. From what I can gather as long the pressure cannon is not fired the pressure cannon warps the attacks

[*zeo]

jedi-guyver, Grendel-HyperZoanoid was refering to recreating the effect of the blast field that Guyvers generate when they activate. The pressure cannon shield does not produce the same exact effect.

Okay, I'm bored so I'll take a crack at this topic.

The explosive pressurized air explaination is probably what is used in the Manga but would not work well in real world practice. For one thing, pressurized air would produce a steam like effect when released into normal pressure air since the act of pressurization increases the temperature of the material being pressurized. Anyone who has ever used a high pressure air cannon would know this and the Pressure Cannon would presumeably have incredibly pressurized air so would be extremely hot. Second the pressurized air would want to spread out in all directions, not just into the target so the pressure cannon would also have to act like a shape charge to get all the air to go into one direction and so so efficiently that even on the scale of the Gigantic Dark blasting a hole into a massive skyscraper would still leave you with perfectly smooth blast radius from point of impact to exit. Unless the Guyver maintains control of the attack after it is fired then this would be quite amazing for the gavity field to pull off. Third, the pressure required to produce the effect of a pressure cannon would exceed 20 atmosphere's, especially considering the instantaneous effect of this attack.

Incidently using this literal interpretation of the Pressure Cannon, it would mean the weapon can only be used within an atmosphere. Not too much a big deal since it is unlikely any Guyver would spend much time in vacuum of space but is a limitation. But the same can be said for the sonic busters as well.

This explaination though does not knock out the popular gravity ball theory since it would still take an enormous concentration of gravity energy to pressurize air. So much so that it kind of discounts the pressure explaination.

As a value for the Guyver's ability to generate gravitational energy is the limited speed a unit can fly. If the Guyver actually had the power to pressurize air into a bomb, and was the only damaging factor, then it would also be able to fly a lot faster than it can. Even taking into account that the pressure cannon focus the gravitational energy to maximize pressurization into a relatively small space.

Personally I think it's a combination, the gravity ball creates a field strong enough to create a high pressure charge that then acts with the gravity field and smashes into a target like a cannon ball. Since matter effects gravity, impact with the target destabilized the gravity ball so only the target gets hit and it goes no further. But the ball last long enough to cause the damage. This is also why it would leave a circular impact in objects capable of stopping it before penetration such as Zektole's armor.

Incidently since matter and energy are interchangeable and nothing is more linked to mass than gravity so it should be no surprise the pressure cannon exerts momentum on both the Guyver and the target. I.E.> The previous example of Zektole being pushed back shows impact momentum and the scene where Gigantic Dark fires a really big Pressure Cannon and gets pushed back when he fires it shows the Guyver feels the power as well.

[Guest]

The heat discharge is very interesting. A great thing to point out. Thanks Zeo.

I don't think a separate gravity field is perfectly needed to project the pressure cannon though. What if the black hole is a degrading singularity? What if it is perfectly timed so that it will loose gravity cohesion (making up a word to describe) when it hits the target? Under that principle, it could travel to the target without any further assistance from the guyver at all.

Of coarse, launching it to the target is the question. 'Tickling' the event horizon to lead it in the general direction of the target would be one (dangerous yet low power) way. Yet your idea of useing gravity fields to launch it is very possible and possibly supported. The wrist pads are energy compressors, compressing the gravity energy provided by the gravity controller into the black hole. What if they were to warble/distort/cancel out the gravity from the area of the host, so that the path to the target is higher, and thus attracts the black hole?

Oh, and a side note, the pads on the hips of the guyver are organs that manipulate the gravity provided by the gravity controller for flight. Perhaps the reason why flight is so slow is because it is affecting a field around the entire body while the energy compressors effect a field in the palm of the hand. What do you think?

[*zeo]

I took that to into account when I said, "Even taking into account that the pressure cannon focus the gravitational energy to maximize pressurization into a relatively small space." Using the earth as an example to get a value for how much gravity you need to compress air to a given amount then you would need extremely strong gravity to compress a small bubble of air to explosive level needed to punch a hole through a zoanoid.

However, I didn't mention how the weapon is fired. I only pointed out the fact it exerts momentum so acts like a physical object on both the Guyver and the target.

Simply changing the focal point of the gravity field is probably what is used to fire the pressure cannon IMO. But your idea of making the pressure cannon basically become attracted to the target is also a good possibility.

As for a collapsing singularity. An interesting idea but I do not believe the pressure cannon is a black hole weapon. If it was then the Gigantic version would be like a Zoalord black hole attack, which it is not. Besides you don't really need to create a singularity to manipulate gravity energy, at least with tech as advance as the Guyver.

Remember the Guyver can manipulate gravity energy without resorting to mass/energy manipulation. So it is directly working with gravity energy, allowing the pressure cannon to contain pressurized air the same way the Earth holds on to its atmosphere, just is a very compact scale.

A collapsing singularity is what we would use if we wanted to create a weapon similar to the Pressure Cannon, which btw we can only do with a really powerful super collider and if the extra dimensions theory is correct and that hawking radiation theory is also correct.

Besides, a collapsing singularity would require precise timing so the pressure cannon would be a time bomb then and would explode whether or not it actually impacts with target. So that wouldn't work given how the pressure cannon is shown to act. Another inhibitor is the fact singularities explode when they die, even a very tiny one would produce light and detectable radiation.

[Guest]

Sorry Zeo. I've pulled out the anatomy notes that Masako did for me. she was generous to do a word for word translation. It specifically says black hole for pressure canon. Takaya's science fiction over rides science fact. We have to bend the rules of science to match the story. (let's just say science hasn't discovered something yet)

On the other hand, he has remarked Gyuo's biggest attack as simply a black hole (assuming I'm remembering right), then later got more specific and called it an artificial black hole during a really dramatic explainative moment. The moment I heard that artificial comment I assumed that any black hole attack would be artificial.

What if this system is compressing a flow of gravitons? What if this black hole is artificial because mass is not the core, which would help make it unstable enough to explode/release all matter that it has compressed. Normally yes, gravitons only link with matter to act as gravitational force; but this could be something new.

(and yes, I'll get to my pm's in a bit, I just have a lot of work to do. Though what I read was very cool, thanks)

[*zeo]

(Your welcome, I thought you'd find those news clips interesting)

Well, I never really expected the manga to be fully scientificially accurate YoungGuyver, but this is the science zone. We're not really debating the Manga, just the science behind it.

Like I said with my first post I fully believe what you say is how the manga explains it. It just doesn't work with real science as we know it. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer before.

Besides, Kanji is not a language you can easily translate word for word. Just look at how Viz messed up some of the translation in their attempt at it. The term black hole or singlarity can simply be an over simplified description of what is really going on. Such concepts are not easily expressed in Kanji after all and a manga/comic is hardly the place that a publisher would allow a science lessen to be given so things often get abbreviated.

It's easy enough to play word games in English, add translation complexity from a very complex language such as Kanji and I'm sure everyone can see that even taking into account Takaya's self admitted lack of scientific training that we can be misreading what he is trying to describe to us.

The word artificial for example can have hidden meaning and alternative explainations.

I.E.> It can mean simply man made or/and something that is similar to the real thing but is not the same.

Then consider for a moment that they could call the pressure cannon a black hole simply because it has enough gravitational energy to suck matter(air) into itself but the fact it releases the air, albiet highly pressurized, clearly shows it is not a black hole as a singularity would destroy the matter(convert it into energy) and only spit out energy when the singularity dies.

Scientifically, the fact the pressure cannon doesn't explode in all directions is another indicator that it is not a true black hole. Also consider that even a small palm size black hole when made to explode would be more likely to nuke its target rather than just punch a hole in it.

But these are just my thoughts on the subject and as YoungGuyver has stated the Manga may not interpret it the same way.

[Guest]

Besides, Kanji is not a language you can easily translate word for word

um, Takaya also uses Katakana when he is trying to use English words. Masako is also an English/Japanese teacher. She was very thurough to provide alternate possibilities (though my translation of vol 8 did not, that you can argue with-cost was an issue). She did not provide any alternative to 'black hole', she was explicit. The furigana aside the B.H. in vol 8 however can be argued just as you said about katakana.

You've mentioned regular black holes and fist sized black holes. a few years ago I was reading up on relativity an such, (forgetting the author, I'd have to stop by the library and find the book again), but it mentioned igsignificant 'mini-black holes' (pebble/atom size). Perhaps something in this range would suit far better. Honestly though I havn't heard much on these, only remember it in passing.

[*zeo]

You miss the point, Black Holes are not a simple subject. They can use the word to describe an action, not just what it is.

I've talked with Japanese/English teachers. Simple fact it is not an exact science and leaves a lot up to interpretation. Which is why I mentioned word games. Even with an accurate translation you have to consider the meaning of what is said. Also that it might be over simplified to save writing space and/or to cover a lack of understanding on the writer's part.

As for Black Holes, simplified explaination is if Hawking is correct they come in all sizes. The smaller they are the shorter they live due to hawking radiation. I.E.> Those first created in our universe that have a mass of say a mountain would be dying about now and would explode with about as much destructive power as Dreadnought's Matrix Bomb.

Those really tiny, like atoms in outer atmosphere created when high energy particles slam into them from space account in part for some near earth gamma radiation and possibly some of the aurora borialis.

So something small enough to fit between a Guyver's palms and with enough gravity to super compress air would explode like a baby nuke. Not to mention the singularity would covert the air into energy so we should get much more of a light show from the pressure cannon if that theory was correct. But as you say that may indeed be what the Manga describes, however that doesn't mean it is scientifically accurate.

[Guest]

Well if it being a black hole would cause all the mass it absorbed to be converted to energy I can model the equation for yield for you. As our atmosphere is about 78% Nitrogen, 20% Oxygen and less then 1% of a lot of other stuff it's reasonable enough to create a conservative model based off 100% pure Nitrogen gas. While 22.41 is the liter quantity for an ideal gas my textbook lists Nitrogen as 22.40L which is why that is used there. This does assume STP but as we aren't going to have exact volume measurements and conditions under which the Guyver has fired a Pressure Cannon are close enough to STP that shouldn't make to big a difference.

E(J)= (X(L) *1mol/22.40L*0.0280134kg/1mol)*299,792,458^2

E(kT)=4.184*10^12J or 1 trillion calories is present set standard

For 2 liters, which seems a reasonable amount of air absorbed from what we've seen, energy yield would be over 20 kT. Needless to say this doesn't seem to agree with empirical evidence.

Edited March 8, 2004 by Guest

[*zeo]

Hmm, I was using a more conservative estimate but both our answers are in the nuclear scale so yes it doesn't match what is shown in either the Manga or Anime.

So we can be pretty sure the Pressure Cannon is not an actual black hole.

However it does bring to mind what kind of attacks some Zoalords like Imakarum may use against the Guyvers if they had just a bit better control.

[Guest]

Based entirely on what we've seen a Pressure cannon most reminds me of this story I heard about some brass bolts spray painted black accidentally being used in place of a special steel with high heat tolerence that is naturally black in a nuclear sub's reactor. As I heard it the high temperature, high pressure steam had quite an effect. I think they said the people on board were vaporized when it hit them.

The pressure cannon from observations takes in quite a bit of air and compresses it significantly.

We don't really see the heat radiate off when this is done. There are however few examples like when first used on Panadyne and when used on a certain armored door in Data 6 where we see some effects of heat. The lack of seeing zoaforms burned or burning when they get hit more often can be accounted to quick over penetration and zoaforms known high resistance to heat. Actually I think the crater in Zektoll's armor when he got hit in manga did smoke a little. Therefore I'd postulate that the heat resulting from compressing the gas stays in the ball and is delivered to the target. This isn't necessarily the only explanation for said phenomena but it would help explain them.

For audience wondering what the deal is with compressing a gas making it release heat you may want to look at a basic freon cooling system or similar. Essentially it has to do with conservation of energy and reducing the kinetic energy of the particles resulting in heat.

[Guest]

What would a graviton singularity be like? A pattern of gravitons that holds matter inside without crunching it to the point where the matter becomes the basis for the gravitation singularity. Would there still be radiation? Extreme heat (I'm expecting a little-comparitivly)

Since the boost armor can manipulate gravity, it kind of makes sense to manipulate gravitational effects. Perhaps the pressure canon is a folded 'gravitational echo'. One that can not be sustained indefinetly.

[*zeo]

Singularity is basically collapsed space time to a one dimensional point. Any which way you get that results in a black hole, at least while in normal space time.

What I think you are refering to is folded space time and yes that could work. Come to think of it you can almost mistake it for a black hole but nowhere near as destructive and would give the observed results of a pressure cannon.

Maybe the Manga reference to a black hole is simply in reference to the use of its power instead of a direct reference, focusing gravitational energy to created a ball of folded space time. It would indeed be unstable but effective as a weapon. Also in the anime they called it a gravity weapon and not a black hole per say. So that could be a very good solution to the topic.

Course there are alternatives, like the pressure cannon could be based on the same system that allows the Guyver to store itself in hyper space. So phase shifts effected target mass into hyper space, explaining why there are no sign of the blasted matter. But the folded space time is probably the best solution. Good one YoungGuyver.

[Guest]

Never has it taken me this long to read a topic before.. some solid research and theorizing has gone on here.

Ive always just assumed that the pressure cannon was meant to be a simple engergy weapon that is propelled by gravity (ie a sphere of energy is created by unit-g and then propelled at targed by gravity manipulation) and given a cool name like pressure cannon, beacuse, well, its a cool name.

[Guest]

I don't think phase shifting agrees with observations, Zeo1234. Specifically when it hits Zektoll one would think if it phased matter into higher dimensional space that his armor wouldn't have blocked it in the way observed. I think I can live with the compressed space time concept though.

[*zeo]

Phase shifting into a hyper space produces pressure changes around the event horizon of the dimensional barrier, which would explain both the Guyver blast field and the effects of the Pressure Cannon, but I agree the folded space time is probably what is really used. I simply stated it to show that there are alternate explainations.