Is Alkanphel the True Villain of WG Universe?

[Guest]

Is Alk the true villain of the WG Universe? Why or why not? If not then who do you think? And I don't want to hear answers like he is just a misunderstood character or that he is so attractive that he can't be all bad. I want a logical and decisive answer as to your position.

Ok I'll go first when an individual based on a selfish and costly plan involving the whole planet against an alien entity that is unaware of the presence of a the people on the planet inquestion. He is engaging in an reckless and unneeded course of action. Thus because the plan is vil the man who Invented it is evil.

Well it's not the longest answer I have given but not the shortest either.

[Guest]

I willing to bet on a "No Comment" for this but, here's my two cents.

Alk is but a minor threat, the true villan is still out there. If I'm not mistaken the creators are sill hanging around the solar system. I find it interesting they are contented to sit back and whach. They will inevitably lead to a much larger force of villany.

[Guest]

I don't believe him to be full fledge evil, but he is someone thats hurting and wants revenge.

He was a devoted servant of the Creators and they turned their back on him and tried to kill him. Now if that happened to you, being betrayed by the people you trusted then you would be hurting deeply and that hurt has stayed with him ever since and he desperately wants revenge on those who hurt him.

Now, the whole Chronos idea would be good if he had just announced to the world about the Creators and gained their trust and let them choose if they wanted to be turned into Zoanoids (I know a few ambitious people who would choose that path) but forcing them to become Zoanoids is major no no. He's letting his thirst for revenge consume his vision.

I believe the Creators are the real enemy, and that they'll probably become the real enemy so enough, them or the enemy that Cory mentioned in All Things Change Pt 2 when they were on Feral Island.

[Vengeance]

I actually dont htink Alkanphel is a bad guy whatsoever. If you think about he is acting in the right mind however he does not realize that the ends do not jusitfy the means. He is preparing Earth for war with the Creators because they have already tried to destroy it once before. This is not such a bad thing however his decision to simply take people against their wills and convert them into his soldiers is where the problem comes in

[Guest]

I don't know guys if you think Alk isn't a true villain on those grounds then you also have to consider this fact. There are at least three creators of this universe that feel that the humans of Earth should be an ally rather than an enemy based on their experiences with Jason creators Draven, Galen, and G'kor and these guys are on the high council, and I think its because the creators are observing something they have never seen in humanity reason. I mean if you use Alks experience as an example you allso have to consider the Creators POV they have been repeatedly attacked by humans that have aquired G-Units and gone rouge. Now I am not saying the Creators have been great little rainbos of happiness. But as with any race their are good and bad people. Actually their is someone else I think might pose a much greater threat than Alk or the Creators or the Grakken. The Order of ___ blank (and I'm not being too specific for a reason here as this has not happend yet and I will get a "no comment" for sure from the Admin) Think about it that force is just too big for just that Universe.

[Azaar]

Heh... I played with a similar theme long, long ago... back when I was playing various and sundry Transformer MUSHes. I'll use the giant robots from Cybertron as an example.

*proceeds to hop up onto the soapbox*

My view, so far as Transformers went, was that both sides were right, at least to a certain degree. The Autobots wanted peaceful contact with other species and cultures, in an attempt to show that they weren't afraid of another race like the Quintessons showing up and clapping the irons back on them as slavery. The Decepticons, on the other hand, were fearful enough of another invasion like the Quintessons that they decided that conquering other species and cultures was the only way to ensure peace (and, ironically enough, the Decepticons became the very thing they were trying to protect themselves from). As Megatron's quote from the G1 clip-file went: "Peace through tyranny."

In essence, both sides wanted the same thing: peace on Cybertron and beyond. Their methods, however, were vastly different because of the varying ideologies upon which they founded their beliefs to achieve their goal. That clash of ideologies led to the Second (and later Third) Cybertronian Wars, and continued until after 2006, when Optimus was "resurrected" and the new Golden Age of Cybertron began (at the end of the Generation One series... I'm not about to mess with Beast Wars and other continuities).

*hops off the soapbox*

That sounds wildly off-topic, I know, but the previous example helps me illustrate my view: Alk isn't the BBEG, at least not to me.

Let's face facts: Alk saved the Earth from the Creators, and basically crippled himself in the process. The problem, however, lies in that Alk's actions since waking up and establishing Chronos have stemmed from his belief (however erroneous it might be) that the Creators were evil and should be stopped, simply because they panicked over the first bio-boosted human and their war-like potential. That's fine... but again, his actions have shown that he's just as willing to use humanity as a tool (in this case, to create his own Zoanoid and Zoalord army) to take the fight to the Creators, as the Creators themselves were willing to do the same in modeling humanity into the basis for their armies.

Actions aside, there's Alkanphel's beliefs to consider: He felt betrayed by the Creators for leaving. Worse, he felt the burden of responsibility when he discovered the Creators had left a parting gift in the asteroid/comet/whatever that they flung at Earth to annihilate all life. Can anyone, therefore, be so quick to judge Alkanphel because his methods mimic the Creators: strip humanity of their free will?

The Guyvers, as I've seen it, have fought for humanity's freedom from Alkanphel's tyranny. Yet, ironically, as Sith Guyver said:

I find it interesting they are contented to sit back and whach. They will inevitably lead to a much larger force of villany.

Why? Because the Guyvers are fighting their war for them. Despite the fact that the Creators have superior numbers, they're letting humanity (in the Guyvers) do their dirty work for them and fight a different kind of war than the one Alkanphel wants to fight: the war of attrition.

My total view: both sides are right... and wrong. But Alk isn't the BBEG... he is, however, a good lead-in for whoever the BBEG might be, in my opinion.

[Guest]

True however I don't see any diference if Alky wins either. Their are two reasons that he would become an even bigger bad guy than the creators if they were defeated.

1. All that would stand in his way would be the Grakkens and although the Grakkens have significant numbers they have too many weak points to exploit thus you have pretty much the same situation as the previous status quo.

2. Alk has no scruples what so ever because all he's ever seen when thinking of humanity from the time he was betrayed to his prevention of the destruction of life on earth is a means to defeat an enemy who just abandoned him that was all they did intially. And lets not forget Alk isn't fighting a private war of revenge he is dragging everyone else into it unwillingly. And if not for his lust for revenge the creators would have left earth alone as they posed no threat i.e. no guyvers running around. I don't know I could be wrong.

P.S. I know what your saying azaar but your logic is flawed a little. For example although it was in a twisted sort of way the Decepticons actually wanted to protect the sentient lifeforms of the universe from the Quintison's not because of a selfish desire but a genuine rational that slavery is wrong. Athough as you said they ended up becoming what they hated. Alk never really cared about humanity as he was leaving the planet and if the creators hadn't attacked him he would never have stopped that asteroid at least thats what I have gathered from his overall character.

Again I could be wrong, but it is something to think about isn't it.

[TheGuyversWill]

Wow a comment from TheGuyversWill..

We must first look at what Alkanfel was created for in order to understand his blight. This ?God? forged his humble beginnings within the world as a lord of all life, a being meant to control all, and enacted the creators will on a large populace. This being the case, we can see that, even though our western values, and moral systems, may prove alkanfel to seep into the dark side, his own configuration of those same moral values, shows him to be the good guy.

He started off by saving those beings that he held value over, for even though he was creator controlled, he still had the idea that he didn?t want these wonderful things, which he was in control of, to die off in one reverent moment. From there on, Alkanfel ( correct me if I?m wrong ) is forced into stasis until balcus shows up to help him out. Once the guy wakes up, he?s mad ass hell, and knows, that even though he had stopped them once, if they ever figured out what he did, they would be back to finish the job. So he creates a force of guys, close to his own power range, to fight along side him in the case of these events.

He also knows that the creators have this massive force, that they could have been working on other worlds, since he knows they created zoanoids on earth, they should have something better by now. This being the case, he uses what limited resources he has at hand, and creates an army, to help him out in his cause, would perhaps this massive invasion come upon him. Then? the ultimate discovery, the thing the creators left for, those wonderful Unit-G?s, had seemed to come into his hands once more, a powerful weapon, so powerful it scared a race of advents enough to kill the world that created them; and what happens? Two punk kids end up with his ultimate weapon.

Well, we have to take into account that he decides to take over the world in one day, but we got to remember, they?re not humanity to alkanfel, they are his children, his to control, his to master, his to do whatever he likes with. Hell, if it wasn?t for them, they wouldn?t be here anyways, so we look passed this.

Now what of the warrior guyver fan fiction you ask? The same events take place, the only thing is, we see that alkanfel continues his process, finds more ultimate weapons, and has more of these little beings, which he should be in control of, taking his power away from him. It be like taking your bosses parking spot, and thinking you?re going to get away with it?

I?d say Alkanfel is just doing what comes natural to him, he?s not a villain, we just view him as one because of the fact that we?re human, and our morality seems to press us within the cause of freedom. Alkanfel represents order, humans crave chaos, within the reflection of possible liberty.

Yeah, so the creators are the big bad guys, and within the warrior guyver fan fiction, they only let earth hang around as long as they have, because Jason had to stop this huge mess up they unleashed upon the world ( aka Zoalord Guyver ) . Perhaps they have another mission for him, that they haven?t let onto yet, or perhaps they are just biding their time, hoping that their schemes of manipulation, would persist, and cause the humans to take out themselves. I mean, look at the Warrior Guyver 2 universe. Us humans have pretty simplistic mind sets? when all us fails, nuke the world..

Side note- The Order of ___ will never show up in the Warrior Guyver fan fiction, for ____ has been banned from it.

[Azaar]

P.S. I know what your saying azaar but your logic is flawed a little. For example although it was in a twisted sort of way the Decepticons actually wanted to protect the sentient lifeforms of the universe from the Quintison's not because of a selfish desire but a genuine rational that slavery is wrong. Athough as you said they ended up becoming what they hated.

I never said the Decepticons were acting selfish: in fact, they acted the best way they felt confident in acting to ensure that they were never again treated the way the Quintessons treated them: as slaves. Not only did that philosophy apply to the Quints, but it also applied to any and every other species that the 'Cons came into contact with: whether that was overkill or not, I'll leave to others to debate.

And lets not forget Alk isn't fighting a private war of revenge he is dragging everyone else into it unwillingly. And if not for his lust for revenge the creators would have left earth alone as they posed no threat i.e. no guyvers running around. I don't know I could be wrong.

But back on-topic.

Yes, Alk is dragging everyone else into it. It's the main reason I think eventually humanity will reach the breaking point and just snap. Humanity is being used. The Guyvers are being used, for that matter... by both sides. Both Chronos and the Creators are playing humanity (and the Guyvers supposedly protecting humanity -- or rather, as I prefer to call it, claim to protect humanity while undergoing their own personal quests for vengeance) off each other, and I think that eventually humanity will get sick of it and do something about it.

Prime example (at the risk of moving slightly off-topic again, but I assure you, it bears relavance): Kingdom Come (if you've not read this DC Elseworlds graphic novel... read it: best one I've ever read, hands down). Metahumans are out of control, fighting just to fight. The supervillains are by and large gone, although several do remain, yet the "heroes" can't help but continue the vicious cycle of fighting and endangering humanity in the process. Even Superman's re-founded "Justice League" is subject to it. What happens? Humanity gets tired of it, and decides to reclaim responsibility for themselves, rather than letting the metahumans dictate how they live, and act decisively to take back control of their lives.

I have the feeling that, slowly but surely, humanity is doing the same here in the WG fics. They're playthings to Chronos (who twists them into Zoanoids) and to the Creators (who "use" them as an excuse to encourage the Guyvers to continue fighting the war of attrition that Chronos (and Alk) have been forced into fighting. Eventually, humanity's gonna say, "We're not gonna take it anymore." And when they do, then woe be to everyone... likely because the Creators may very well become the BBEG I referred to earlier and try to destroy Earth again, rather than let humanity go their own way. If that happens... well, Chronos and Alk are no longer threats (Chronos at least... who knows, Alk might just survive it) to the Creators, and neither is humanity: the Creators win by being the last ones standing.

[Sully]

Guys keep to topic, as much as i like TF and have never herd of that other one keep this Guyver.

Note: Humanity has no chance just against WG before he was even Dreadnought. What makes you think humanity has the organisation the time and the ability to do anything to the Guyvers, Creators, Grakken and Chronos?

[Azaar]

True enough. Only reason I used TFs was to help illustrate my point a little better, but I'll keep it in check.

Note: Humanity has no chance just against WG before he was even Dreadnought. What makes you think humanity has the organisation the time and the ability to do anything to the Guyvers, Creators, Grakken and Chronos?

I won't argue that, power-wise, humanity has the deck stacked against them. They might not be able to do much of anything (if anything at all) of an offensive nature to them, unless they somehow learned how to play with genetics the way the Creators do and make up some sort of genetically tailored disease/virus and use it against Chronos and/or the Guyvers. But I like to think that humanity could (and should) be allowed to make up their minds on this little war between Chronos, the Guyvers, the Grakkens, and the Creators... at least as to whether they want to be in the middle of it, or tell them to pack up and take the fight somewhere else. Unfortunately, humanity wasn't allowed that choice, and now they're on the short end of the stick, forced into the middle because the various sides (mostly Chronos, but the Creators are just as guilty, and the Guyvers are mostly being pulled along their strings behind the scenes by the Creators) refuse to allow humanity to decide what they want. It's become a battle of what everyone else wants.

But what does everyone want?

Chronos wants an army to lay down the smack on the Creators. Alkanphel and the rest of the Chronos Zoalords are intent on enslaving humanity and forcing them to become Zoanoids (or, for the ones with better potential, Zoalords), so that when Alkanphel's ready, he can storm the gates of heaven (so to speak) and lay waste to the Creators for abandoning him and then trying to kill him (and everyone else on Earth).

The Creators want to use humanity as the dangling carrot to force the Guyvers to fight Chronos. Everything I've read points to the Creators (in the name of their science) to sit back and watch everything unfold. Why the Creators are even concerned about Chronos is beyond me... after all, they have all those Aceaers, Kavzars, and Kavzar Commanders, never mind the Enforcer Kavzars (rare as they might be, I think there's still quite a few around). And they're worried over old zoaform technology that they virtually discarded (in favor of the Kavzar, I might add) more than two million years ago? Doubtful. The Creators, in my mind, just want to sit back and drop a bunch of Guyver units onto Earth, and force humanity to become nothing more than a commodity to be argued over by the Guyvers and Chronos.

The Guyvers... most of them seem to just want revenge for something that happened because of something that either Chronos or the Creators did to them in the past. Those who didn't get slighted by Chronos or the Creators just wanted the power the Unit-G could give them, and proceeded to take that power. That might be a harsh judgment, but that seems to be the theme of most of the characters now, and it's used as an excuse to get revenge on Chronos or the Creators: Agito has always been power-hungry and world-dominating like Pinky and the Brain, for example, hence why he took the third Japanese unit and took the path he's now on. Protecting humanity sounds nice as a common cause to fight for, but in the end, it's all about the quest for revenge against their enemies, and humanity is reduced to the status of innocent (and likely to die) bystanders.

Hopefully I've not offended everyone by now. The WG.com writers are quite adept at giving us a good read, and there's a lot of story still left to tell (which I eagerly await). This is just my take on things, and I'm sure that as drawn-out as this last diatribe has been, I'm still not seeing the whole picture.

[Guest]

(Stands next to Azaar, who's standing on soap box, and leans head into spot light.)

What he said. But, one question (looks up at Azaar) Would the creators wish to ally with Humanity if they, and the guyvers, win the war?

(Leans out of spot light and takes a seat back amoungst the audience.)

[Guest]

Azaar I don't know if we should be judging the creators too harshly. true they did a lot of dispicable things and in the end almost destroyed life on this tiny insignificant planet. But you have to consider this the creators prior to the first guyver were experimenting with humanity for a long time, the creators made the mistake of not monitoring the evolutionary progression of humanity as closely as they should have. and in a state of shock over the whole guyver incident made a whole lot of crappy decisions they shouldn't have made. Okay now we know that the creators as a whole are not nearly as evil as alk is making them out to be and as I have pointed out previously given Draven and his two other buddies as examples inicates to me they are more open to humanity from their encounters with Jason so that could possibly mean that the creators public may also have a more open mind to humanity. I mean after the guyver zoalord the creators monitored humanity to find out if the WG got back alright and n the time that they were monitoring us don't you think they got to see our civilization change and evolve and begin to look starteliningly more like their own. This being said I see the creators being more of an ally then an enemy. For instance in WG2's reality Draven (and that isn't the same one in WG's) helps Humanity to escape from the annilation of earth. Granted the creators were responsible for it. The decision was less likely to hapen if good old alk hadn't blown the creators scout craft out of the sky because of survey say's his own lust for revenge. So again I tend to agree with siths suggetion.

I just don't get that scum of the earth feeling in general when thinking of the creators I see them as more of a mirror of us. the number of parralels between us and them is frightening.

[Guest]

What? Our Ignorance? Our Arrogance?

Our total disregard for any kind of living creature that we feel we're superior too? Yes, I can see what you mean (Please note, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm agreeing)

I still stand by what I said though, however I guess we're never really going to know until Sully reveals it himself, and knowing Sully, he's going to have one hell of a surprise for us.

[Guest]

No riven although we share those qualities with them as well. I was speaking more on the way our governments are formated and the way we search for knowlege. Okay I just want to be clear I am not saying the Creators are the fuzzy bunny rabbits of the universe I am only saying that they are not as evil as most of you think they are. And it is not like we havent made bad decsions out of fear and shock. So can you really judge them so harshlly when we haven't been the pinnicle of sound thinking and judgement either.

[Azaar]

Whee... back from moving yesterday, and I find more to read and reply to...

Sith Guyver: It depends on whether the Creators want to actually be allies, or whether they're planning on using humanity again as unwitting pawns (I'll explain that in a bit more detail below).

Weltall2: Okay... are the Creators evil? Individually, no. Draven, Krullnar and Galen (and Solom, from when he was thawed out until he died) seemed quite receptive to the idea of humanity getting along with the Creators. As a group entity... that is a question much more difficult to answer.

Yes, the Creators used humanity before, when experimenting on them and (in the process) inadvertantly discovering the Guyver effect. They wanted their own little army, and knew they were too weak to do it themselves, since the Unit-G basically made them about ten times as strong as a normal human and gave them a physical form.

It boils down to whether the Creators are willing to step off the "we are superior to humanity" soapbox and actually be the allies that the individual Creators like Draven and the rest, or whether they plan to just use humanity more. Right now, they're using humanity: the individual Creators might not be (or might not have intended to do as much), but they are.

Why is Chronos fighting a war of attrition with the Guyvers on Earth? Because the Creators have made a point of dumping new test units on Earth specifically for that purpose. They might claim that it's to test the units, and to a certain degree they're justified in using that answer, but like it's been said before, it only benefits the Creators to dump the units on Earth, where humans can activate them and be drawn into fighting Alkanphel and Chronos for them.

As Matt Bellamy stated in another thread: Chronos' purpose is to build an army capable of taking on the Creators and winning. Unfortunately, it's not likely to happen, given that the Creators have 10 trillion Kavzar as their front line troops, 10 million Kavzar Commanders, and 4,000 Enforcer Kavzar... and that's not including all the Aceaer-Caste warriors within the Empire.

So why are the Creators worried over Alkanphel... or for that matter, should they be? The Creators have a definite numerical superiority that Chronos can't match. The Zoanoids are, generally speaking, goners, and that leaves Alk and his Zoalords against the combined might of the Creators. Alk's screwed, he just doesn't know it yet. Sully said before that even if the Creators sent one percent of their armies at Earth, then Earth is dead and gone and there's nothing to be done to stop it.

The Creators, in short, have proved they aren't ready to be the allies (as a group) that the individuals like Draven and Krullnar are willing to be. I will admit, though, that humanity isn't ready for that step either. Despite that, the Creators will use humanity again. They used humanity before, they're using humanity now... yes, I think the Creators will continue to use humanity to benefit themselves. It's not any different than how Alk and Chronos are treating humanity... but as they say, better the evil you know than the evil you don't...

[Guest]

So basically the Creators (as a whole) are waiting to see if Earth becomes a threat to them. And if Earth does it can be easily remidied.

[Guest]

Azaar you make a good point and you are right humanity fighting the Cronos corp. only helps the creators and yes they are using us. However arn't we forgeting if not for alk humanity wouldn't be in this mess or maybe not as deep. But you failed to respond to another comment I made about alk. If the creators had taken him with them do you really think he would have bothered to stop that asteroid or for that matter care wehter we lived or died. Furthermore upon further thought there might have been another reason the creators acted so hastily, most of us have come to know the creators feared a guyver zoalord well I've been thinking what if it wasn't just the possibility of a guyver zoalord that scared the crap out of them what if it were the concept of a GZ Darmon being just think if that crystal had somehow foun it's way to a GZ don't you think that discretion is the better part of valor I mean such a being would not only threaten the creators but the universe itself.

[Azaar]

Sith Guyver wrote:

So basically the Creators (as a whole) are waiting to see if Earth becomes a threat to them. And if Earth does it can be easily remidied.

Indeed. That's been the general feeling that I've gotten from the Creators as a collective entity.

Weltall2 wrote:

Azaar you make a good point and you are right humanity fighting the Cronos corp. only helps the creators and yes they are using us. However arn't we forgeting if not for alk humanity wouldn't be in this mess or maybe not as deep. But you failed to respond to another comment I made about alk. If the creators had taken him with them do you really think he would have bothered to stop that asteroid or for that matter care wehter we lived or died. Furthermore upon further thought there might have been another reason the creators acted so hastily, most of us have come to know the creators feared a guyver zoalord well I've been thinking what if it wasn't just the possibility of a guyver zoalord that scared the crap out of them what if it were the concept of a GZ Darmon being just think if that crystal had somehow foun it's way to a GZ don't you think that discretion is the better part of valor I mean such a being would not only threaten the creators but the universe itself.

I'm not letting Alkanphel shirk from his responsibility in getting humanity into this predicament. Truth be known, there's plenty of blame to go around, whether it be directed at Alkanphel alone, the Creators alone, or both... personally, both are responsible for getting humanity into this mess, but that's just my opinion.

If Alk had been able to leave Earth with the Creators... Earth would have been toast, no question. I don't think Alk would have cared at that point: in fact, he probably would have agreed wholly with the reasoning of the Creators in tossing that asteroid at Earth. But that's something we could never fully explore unless someone goes into some sort of alternate dimension where Alk did leave with the Creators, and even then we'd just be getting one possibility.

But the Creators did leave Alkanphel behind. Yes, of course the Creators were afraid of a Guyver Zoalord. Reeve as the Guyver Zoalord was bad enough... think of how much worse it would have been if Alkanphel had been the Guyver Zoalord: Alk was the pinnacle of Zoalord engineering at the time, the most powerful entity on Earth, so to speak. At the same time, though, Alk was basically human, and seeing their most powerful weapon magnified a hundredfold (assuming, of course, that the bio-boosting from the Guyver effect would have matched what it's been shown to do with a normal human), and out of their control... you get the idea.

As far as a Guyver Zoalord Darmon... doubtful, but I won't count out the possibility. I'll point you, however, to the debate McAvoy and I had going on the Crystalite thread (further down the thread list on this forum), and state the basis of my view: I think Darmon is an uber-Crystalite of sorts. If the Guyver effect worked on Darmon... yeah, he'd be a threat to the universe. But I'm not certain that it would work... Crystalite came into being because a fragment of Hunter's crystal (which, If I remember Correctly, was originally considered a part of Darmon, but don't hold me to that) absorbed into Jenny's Turbo Unit and then completely re-wrote the Guyver organism to match the new parameters ingrained into the crystal fragment itself.

[Guest]

Azaar don't get me wrong as I said I don't think the creators are blameless in this not by a long shot I am mearly suggestting that from whats been demonstrated so far regardless of their using humanity they are far from the ultimate evil that would threaten the warrior guyver universe. I point to a couple of reasons for this.

1. As mentiond earlier the creators seem to have a similar gov't to ours or at least elements found in our gov'ts thus that leads me to believe that their would be divided parties in their gov'ts thus having two or more groups with different positions, prorities, and Ideals. (mind you this is purely speculation) Which makes them far to divided for all of them to have melevolent intentions.

2. Their appears to be a separate creator force which has the orange kavzars as to their intentions and or motive I haven't the foggiest. But from what they have shown they went against their own kind. You can draw your own conclusions their.

3. For a time now I have thought that their needed to be a greater enemy than the Creators represented after all like I said of the ones we have seen in WG's universe they don't seem to have that ultimate evil feeling more like that more advanced humanity feel to them. So this "Evil" force would have to demonstrate that total lack of respect for the notion of life any life it applies to us the creators and cronos. And as those three don't exibit that quality it can not be them. For example the creators could have eliminated the earth right after the WG got back from the GZ war Cronos or not and I really don't think it was purely to test their own units either otherwise they could have taken the people they needed and just annilated us, but instead ther are interacting with us intrigued that when we see them guyver or not our first intention is not to blow them up instead we want to find out their intention. Demonstrating logic. Now back to the point a totally evil and merciless force would not act this way they would instead act as teranicle or evil forces have acted in our history enslavement or genocide. Though it is true the Creators pretty much acted as the enslavers in the past they have not retaken that mantel.

Well thats how I see the situation as it stands who knows I could be completely wrong I don't have a problem being wrong in fact I am comfortable with that it wouldn't be fun to be right all the time.

[Azaar]

Personally, I'm not certain that the Creators will be the ultimate BBEG for the Warrior Guyver universe... my own view is that Darmon might be involved in some way as the BBEG, but that's just a guess.

All I've tried to do is point to why it is that the Creators, as a group, have shown themselves to be unreliable as potential allies to humanity. As I said before, though, humanity isn't really ready to make that sort of alliance themselves, either. Both sides have a long way to go before a mutually beneficial long-term stable alliance could be made between each side (I say that because right now, any such alliance would be tenuous at best).

The orange Kavzar... those guys I've not attempted to guess about, mostly because I've not really read enough to have seen them often. My gut instinct says they serve a renegade sect of Creators that themselves could possibly be the BBEG that everyone's afraid of, but this is all hypothetical guesswork, and therefore taken with a grain of salt.

For example the creators could have eliminated the earth right after the WG got back from the GZ war

Could have, yes... but they didn't, because they knew that Jason had come from the future, and he was their only chance at defeating Guyver Zoalord. If the Creators had destroyed Earth afterwards... well, that leads to a rather nasty temporal paradox that makes my head ache.

but instead ther are interacting with us intrigued that when we see them guyver or not our first intention is not to blow them up instead we want to find out their intention. Demonstrating logic.

True enough. Humanity has grown intellectually far beyond what the Creators expected, and such curiosity has given them pause. However, remember that we're also talking about individual Creators, such as Draven, Krullnar and Galen: what the Creators think as a group, however, is another matter entirely.

[Guest]

I have also trying to point out through my opinions about Draven and his group that perhaps their ultimate goal is to gain humanity as an ally. But you are right nor humanity or the creators are ready or prepared for such an alliance. However I do think that Draven realizes that and is instead trying to build trust on both sides as eith his actions in SDOH pt. 3. However since I really don't know anything my scope is extreamly limited and is speculation at best.

Both sides have a long way to go before even approaching the capacity to interact in a political sense as in negociations (spelling). But to say that they could never ally themselves with us because of past wrongs would be wrong take the Germans for instance.

Also I am well aware that you never discounted the creators as a possible ally Azaar I am mearly saying this for the nay sayers of this Message Board.

[Guest]

Ok, first time poster here, feel free to verbaly beat me silly if I say something stupid. BBEG of the universe eh? Who is it, do we know them yet? Were they existing before our scope of time and have since been defeated? Are they still at large? Are they holding back for now?

Lets look at the creators first. Id imagine some time was needed to amasse several hundred trillion Acear-cast soldiers, (aka cannon-fodder) let alone the Kavzar-class soldier (aka average soldier) and finaly the Kavzar Commander (skilled officer) Lets just ignore the Enforcer-cast Kavzar for now, and say they are special task guys. You have to have some pretty scary enimies to devote and entire planet in each sector/solar system or whatever to warfare (ie the War Worlds)

Now, back on our past, the creators dicked around with zoa-forms, getting your, at the time, strong zoanoid forms, and Super-powerful zoalord types. At the time, thier enemy wasn't all that strong so to speak, but was perhaps numerous, hence the need for massive amounts of troops. Now, after that bungling of stuff, they bugger off to find another species to turn into weapons. We get the grakkens. Now the creators screw that up too, and get stuck in a few thousand years of war, during wich they have developed acear and Kavzar soldiers, and the Kavzar commanders. Lets stop and look now, many many many years have gone by. If the creators could have afforded to dick around and keep screwing up like that, they must have defeated the origional enemy, or at least driven them off for a long time. Why else could they deal with such a massive threat as the grakkens? Finaly, a truce is declared between Grakken and Creator forces. Fine and dandy. Then, the creators advance more, and more, and have a much greater force (and with warriors in higher power classes then destroyer grakken) and just sit around. Call them paranoid, but you have to have a mighty good reason to continue to mass troops like that.

The grakkens arent that big of a threat, but, in fact, they seem to be the only decent threat out there, seeing that they can pimp slap alkanphel and his bio-titans across the solar system any time they wanted. Humanity is nowere near the capability to wage war on them, even with WG in dreadnaught form. Man, ive been rambling, any way, my point comes to light. There is something else out there, that is soo evil and dangerous, that the creators are just waiting for it to return. This "mystery" force is gonna be/always was the BBEG, for it was the reason the entire guyver idea came about.

[Azaar]

There is something else out there, that is soo evil and dangerous, that the creators are just waiting for it to return. This "mystery" force is gonna be/always was the BBEG, for it was the reason the entire guyver idea came about.

Probably. I think it's the Darmon entity, myself, but at the same time, I can't discount the one(s) controlling the orange Kavzar forces, as they've already proven that they can and will attack their own kind without any real provocation. But my money, given what we've seen so far, is on Darmon.

[Guest]

There is something else out there, that is soo evil and dangerous, that the creators are just waiting for it to return. This "mystery" force is gonna be/always was the BBEG, for it was the reason the entire guyver idea came about.

Probably. I think it's the Darmon entity, myself, but at the same time, I can't discount the one(s) controlling the orange Kavzar forces, as they've already proven that they can and will attack their own kind without any real provocation. But my money, given what we've seen so far, is on Darmon.

All right, I'm stupid. Could you explain what Darmon is and these orange Kavzars please? Also how they may be the big villan?

I think my mind has left me, so please bear with me.