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Is Aptom at his limit?


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On 5/1/2022 at 6:04 AM, Tora Tan said:

The Ark is not a zoanoid though. It's made from a relic and probably doesn't have any human physiology that aptom could latch onto.

It doesn't matter if it isn't a Zoanoid. It's organic: This means Aptom can absorb it. The only things Aptom can't absorb are: Guyvers (because of the control medallion) and Zoalords (because of the Zoacrystal). In the case of Guyvers, the armor protect's the host automatically but in the case of Zoalords they need to activate the protection (Kabral Khan/ Draglord form Vol.25 Ch.159) is a good example.

2031209303_Guyver-Vol_25Ch.158-32.thumb.jpg.0e716fbf602d26f4d8d2785b331865f4.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I think you need to be careful about assumptions.

Aptom is really talking about zoanoids here, which is shown in the image. but we have never seen him absorb a spider and suddenly be able to spin silk as strong as steel. It's important to consider what aptom is; he is a zoanoid. he is a human with a genetic structure that can take portions of dna that are compatible with human. We don't know the exact process, but it has been shown that he can absorb human based systems. anything that is compatible with human. we could imagine that he works much like a virus, plugging in dna from other organisms, but a relic is not in any way designed to physically interface with humans. we don't even know if it uses dna or any related nucleic acid. we don't know if it has genes. to assume that he could absorb it just because it is alive, is a stretch too far. we surely know that the guyver can interface with different biological systems but the relic and by extension the ark, are not shown to have these qualities and may be rather exotic.

edit: I think it's worth pointing out, the lifeform that made up the relic not the same as the guyver. the guyver was a predatory parasite. if the relic was like that, the bits of it that were scattered would have caused mayhem. the relic 'flesh' didn't do that though, and it never interfaced physically with the pilot, only through the nav spheres.

 

edit 2: probably also a good idea to point out, the gigantic may be constructed from the relic cells,but it never interfaces with a human, it interfaces with the guyver. we have never seen a human call the gigantic without first being bioboosted and of course the guyver itself can interface with any creature because it is a dimensional parasite. so I felt it was important to point that out. the gigantic does not interface with human dna, it interfaces with the guyver parasite.

Edited by Tora Tan
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12 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

I think you need to be careful about assumptions.

Aptom is really talking about zoanoids here, which is shown in the image. but we have never seen him absorb a spider and suddenly be able to spin silk as strong as steel. It's important to consider what aptom is; he is a zoanoid. he is a human with a genetic structure that can take portions of dna that are compatible with human. We don't know the exact process, but it has been shown that he can absorb human based systems. anything that is compatible with human. we could imagine that he works much like a virus, plugging in dna from other organisms, but a relic is not in any way designed to physically interface with humans. we don't even know if it uses dna or any related nucleic acid. we don't know if it has genes. to assume that he could absorb it just because it is alive, is a stretch too far. we surely know that the guyver can interface with different biological systems but the relic and by extension the ark, are not shown to have these qualities and may be rather exotic.

edit: I think it's worth pointing out, the lifeform that made up the relic not the same as the guyver. the guyver was a predatory parasite. if the relic was like that, the bits of it that were scattered would have caused mayhem. the relic 'flesh' didn't do that though, and it never interfaced physically with the pilot, only through the nav spheres.

 

edit 2: probably also a good idea to point out, the gigantic may be constructed from the relic cells,but it never interfaces with a human, it interfaces with the guyver. we have never seen a human call the gigantic without first being bioboosted and of course the guyver itself can interface with any creature because it is a dimensional parasite. so I felt it was important to point that out. the gigantic does not interface with human dna, it interfaces with the guyver parasite.

You are overthinking. If Aptom will devour the Ark, he will be able to become GIGANTIC like the GIGANTIC EXCEED -pretty cool-.

I see Aptom like Alex Mercer from Prototype and Venom from Marvel Comics. He doesn't work like a virus, he works like a parasite "He can devour the host or live in symbiosis".

 

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2 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

You are overthinking. If Aptom will devour the Ark, he will be able to become GIGANTIC like the GIGANTIC EXCEED -pretty cool-.

I see Aptom like Alex Mercer from Prototype and Venom from Marvel Comics. He doesn't work like a virus, he works like a parasite "He can devour the host or live in symbiosis".

 

Except Aptom is not a parasite, he is a Zoanoid.

I'm not overthinking anything, I'm accepting what is shown in the manga and not making up wild propositions based on flights of fancy.

This is the guyver science lab, not the fan fiction section.

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Posted (edited)

haven't looked at the original Japanese manga in a while, so i had a look. he does actually say he can digest the cells of all living things and copy exceptional traits from their genetic information. That much is clear.  I think we need to be cautious in our assumptions though. it's likely he could absorb the cells of the relic or ark, but we can't say for sure whether it would have traditional genetics. Let's say that it does have genetics that aptom can read, it still wouldn't give him any exceptional abilities, because all of the weapon systems of the guyver and gigantic are coded from the control metal and nav sphere.  we have no idea what a relic ship lifeform would be capable of without a nav sphere, maybe it only has basic metabolism functions, and a potential to accept programming and adapt it's form and function based on input data. but then, since that is something the creators seem to do habitually, I don't think that's special. human cells accept data and change their form when they are 'processed' so I don't see any reason to believe it would be at all special.

edit: considering the Ark doesn't have a nav sphere, I guess we can assume some natural qualities of the lifeform. It is capable of surviving in a vacuum, it has levitation abilities, it is capable of collecting, storing and diverting massive quantities of energy, though this could be fully dependent on size.
There's no guarantee whether aptom's cells could access any of this information though. The code could be incompatible/exotic, and also, we only have Aptom's own supposition to go on. Based on his monologue, I guess we can assume he has tried absorbing insects or birds or even trees. But I'm not sure we can assume that he is fully considering lifeforms that could have exotic biology. I just don't think we can take it as a given, even considering all this.

Edited by Tora Tan
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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Tora Tan said:

 Based on his monologue, I guess we can assume he has tried absorbing insects or birds or even trees. But I'm not sure we can assume that he is fully considering lifeforms that could have exotic biology. I just don't think we can take it as a given, even considering all this.

That's what I was thinking. He can't just have a cannibalistic appetite for zoanoids. He's probably into regular food. He only eats zoanoids, humans, and animals when he needs to regenerate. Is my assumption backed by the manga or the anime? No. Nothing is set in the manga and all characters are different. 

In comparison, I felt the same way about Guyot's set up when he was given a prototype zoacrystal. He wasn't designed as a prototype with a short life span and Cronus has a tendency to let their protos die because most protos are people, like Murakami, that they kidnapped and experimented on without their consent. So to keep them from ever talking, they give them a few weeks to live and then when they drop dead, no problem. 

If anything after his re-optimization,  he's probably closer to the level of a suped up Lost Number like Neo Zx Tole but nothing like a "True Zoalord".

We've only seen Guyot use his powers once after re-op and he didn't suffer any fatigue or pass out like Murakami did. The 2 Rogue Zoalords didn't want Guyot more powerful than them and also didn't want to send a dying assassin doing their dirty work. They're in an unholy alliance against Archanfel so it makes sense that they would keep him alive and this time they've got him on a leash . The difference that I can see is that  Murakami was a test subject who was turned against his will and Cronus has a tendency to kill innocent people that they illegally experiment on and Guyot is not a test subject and was re-optimized for a new power source. 

People here presume Guyot's power is now like Murakami and will die if he loses too much power based on Murakami's set up alone. Do we know that as a fact? No we do not. Yoshiki hasn't set that in stone and well, he may never define what was done to Guyot or give Aptom new powers. This all remains to be seen. 

Edited by MrDawn
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15 hours ago, MrDawn said:

That's what I was thinking. He can't just have a cannibalistic appetite for zoanoids. He's probably into regular food. He only eats zoanoids, humans, and animals when he needs to regenerate. Is my assumption backed by the manga or the anime? No. Nothing is set in the manga and all characters are different. 

In comparison, I felt the same way about Guyot's set up when he was given a prototype zoacrystal. He wasn't designed as a prototype with a short life span and Cronus has a tendency to let their protos die because most protos are people, like Murakami, that they kidnapped and experimented on without their consent. So to keep them from ever talking, they give them a few weeks to live and then when they drop dead, no problem. 

If anything after his re-optimization,  he's probably closer to the level of a suped up Lost Number like Neo Zx Tole but nothing like a "True Zoalord".

We've only seen Guyot use his powers once after re-op and he didn't suffer any fatigue or pass out like Murakami did. The 2 Rogue Zoalords didn't want Guyot more powerful than them and also didn't want to send a dying assassin doing their dirty work. They're in an unholy alliance against Archanfel so it makes sense that they would keep him alive and this time they've got him on a leash . The difference that I can see is that  Murakami was a test subject who was turned against his will and Cronus has a tendency to kill innocent people that they illegally experiment on and Guyot is not a test subject and was re-optimized for a new power source. 

People here presume Guyot's power is now like Murakami and will die if he loses too much power based on Murakami's set up alone. Do we know that as a fact? No we do not. Yoshiki hasn't set that in stone and well, he may never define what was done to Guyot or give Aptom new powers. This all remains to be seen. 

Aptom doesn't need to consume Zoanoids in order to regenerate; he does it only to speed up his regeneration.

Aptom (Vol.11 Ch.64), about his urge to devour. "I think, one day; he will win the fight versus his instincts".

198576398_Guyver-Vol_11Ch.64-14.thumb.jpg.e50d16ad78c8672e86f5cdeee5d5b05c.jpg

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

Aptom doesn't need to consume Zoanoids in order to regenerate; he does it only to speed up his regeneration.

Maybe. But like every living thing he needs energy to heal and without absorbing or consuming other living things he can't fully regenerate. He only partially regenerated before he needed Elegen to finish. Especially now with his current battle form, the energy he puts out from the Hyper Zoanoids that he ate prior takes a toll on him. He needs to absorb to maintain energy and mass. 

 

 

Edited by MrDawn
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  • 1 month later...
On 5/18/2022 at 12:20 AM, DefTempist said:

Maybe. But like every living thing he needs energy to heal and without absorbing or consuming other living things he can't fully regenerate. He only partially regenerated before he needed Elegen to finish. Especially now with his current battle form, the energy he puts out from the Hyper Zoanoids that he ate prior takes a toll on him. He needs to absorb to maintain energy and mass. 

 

 

Could he recharge his energies with the wings he gained from Zx-tole DNA?

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14 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

Could he recharge his energies with the wings he gained from Zx-tole DNA?

No, that's a different type of energy. For the Blaster Tempest, Zx-tole was absorbing ambient heat/radiation from the surrounding area to charge the attack. Aptom would need more than just extra heat energy to live off of.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2022 at 7:11 AM, Matt Bellamy said:

No, that's a different type of energy. For the Blaster Tempest, Zx-tole was absorbing ambient heat/radiation from the surrounding area to charge the attack. Aptom would need more than just extra heat energy to live off of.

170829536_Guyver-Vol_5Ch.33-19.thumb.jpg.38eca81394ec6015e98eeb7db5a6b5bb.jpg

In the manga Aptom says to Dr. Balkus " By absorbing another organism into my body, like this... I can convert its flesh to heat energy" which charge his body energy. Zx-tole can absorb ambient heat energy but also solar energy (like the Ark), "which Alkamphel utilized to restore the body of Imakarum Mirabilis leaving the Ark without energy." I believe he can do it but never thought about it. Like when he created a energy shield (utilizing Elegen's powers) to protect himself from the Megasmasher the same way Neo Zx-tole did versus Guyver 3's Megasmasher. He has a lot of potential but doesn't have much imagination.

Edited by ALASTOR
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6 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

170829536_Guyver-Vol_5Ch.33-19.thumb.jpg.38eca81394ec6015e98eeb7db5a6b5bb.jpg

In the manga Aptom says to Dr. Balkus " By absorbing another organism into my body, like this... I can convert its flesh to heat energy" which charge his body energy. Zx-tole can absorb ambient heat energy but also solar energy (like the Ark), "which Alkamphel utilized to restore the body of Imakarum Mirabilis leaving the Ark without energy." I believe he can do it but never thought about it. Like when he created a energy shield (utilizing Elegan's powers) to protect himself from the Megasmasher the same way Hyper Zx-tole did versus Guyver 3's Megasmasher. He has a lot of potential but doesn't have much imagination.

I would be wary of using the Viz translation as a definite source, as the translation is not great.

Most other sources just list it as "bio energy" that he absorbs along with their flesh.

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Posted (edited)

This is really tricky wording. I'm not used to this kind of speech.

 

私があなたがた獣神将(ゾアロード)精神支配から解き放たれているのにお気づきか?
そう私はすでに獣化兵(ゾアノイド)などというちっぽけな存在ではない
度重なる調製実験が私を別種の生命体に進化させたのだ
このように他の生物を体内に取り込み
その肉を熱量(エネルギー)に変換しつつ優れた形質は己の物とし

Do you realise, I am free from you zoalords' mind control? (beast divine general)
yes, I'm no longer a tiny being like a zoanoid (beast-becoming soldier)
Due to repeated manufacture experiment, I have evolved into a new type of life form
Like this, other creatures are taken into the body
the flesh is converted into energy, outstanding form and nature become my own. (calorific value / heat value)

 

I'm not certain it means literal heat, it does specify energy and we measure the energy content of food by burning it. But it does imply that he is not storing the flesh as matter, it is turned into energy, and it's seen as the same way as heat, so I imagine it's saying that Aptom can use pure energy or heat energy to construct his body or utilise it in some other way?

edit: The kanji does actually specify 'heat value', rather than just 'heat', so it's referring the the inherent energy within 'heat'.

Edit 2 : in any case, the katakana is very clear when it says 'energy'. the kanji is just clarifying what energy means.

 

edit 3: looking at the context of this conversation, I would say that the manga doesn't imply that Aptom can sustain himself on heat from the environment. The way it is written, I would imagine it would be necessary to convert 'heat' into 'energy' for him to be able to use it.

Edited by Tora Tan
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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 7/2/2022 at 9:58 AM, ALASTOR said:

Could he recharge his energies with the wings he gained from Zx-tole DNA?

Quote

The way it is written, I would imagine it would be necessary to convert 'heat' into 'energy' for him to be able to use it.

I can neither confirm nor deny. The way Yuki stated in this above post is that Aptom is basically a rechargeable battery. Even if he is completely drained of his own energy, he'll recharge over time (obviously). The amount of time that it takes for him to do that though is unspecified. Some of the Lost Number type zoanoids that he ate and assimilated, were glass canon types much like Toshiaki Hayami the Bio Freezer zoanoid. They hit heavy but the amount of bio energy that they put out drains them quickly. Hayami's freeze attack left him drained and to the point of passing out.  Aptom seems to be suffering from this weakness as well when he burns too much energy using the same attacks.

Originally, Aptom was designed by Dr. Barcas to optimize into regular zoanoid types and he could increase the power output on their attacks and not suffer any fatigue from it. Barcas didn't want him eating other zoanoids and so with him not wanting Aptom to cannibalize his own kind explained a lot of things to me. 

When he started eating the souped up zoanoid types (hypers and lost numbers); keep in mind those advanced zoanoids were optimized to end fights quickly because of how much energy they put out. Like in the anime, Richard Guyot thought by upgrading  Zerbebuth with anti guyver genetic traits was with the idea  for that zoanoid to beat the guyver quickly. Unit 1 figured this out and waited until Zerbebuth used up his energy reserves showing off and went in for a killing blow when he wore himself down doing so. 

Edited by MrDawn
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On 7/28/2022 at 4:10 PM, MrDawn said:

I can neither confirm nor deny. The way Yuki stated in this above post is that Aptom is basically a rechargeable battery. Even if he is completely drained of his own energy, he'll recharge over time (obviously). The amount of time that it takes for him to do that though is unspecified. Some of the Lost Number type zoanoids that he ate and assimilated, were glass canon types much like Toshiaki Hayami the Bio Freezer zoanoid. They hit heavy but the amount of bio energy that they put out drains them quickly. Hayami's freeze attack left him drained and to the point of passing out.  Aptom seems to be suffering from this weakness as well when he burns too much energy using the same attacks.

Originally, Aptom was designed by Dr. Barcas to optimize into regular zoanoid types and he could increase the power output on their attacks and not suffer any fatigue from it. Barcas didn't want him eating other zoanoids and so with him not wanting Aptom to cannibalize his own kind explained a lot of things to me. 

When he started eating the souped up zoanoid types (hypers and lost numbers); keep in mind those advanced zoanoids were optimized to end fights quickly because of how much energy they put out. Like in the anime, Richard Guyot thought by upgrading  Zerbebuth with anti guyver genetic traits was with the idea  for that zoanoid to beat the guyver quickly. Unit 1 figured this out and waited until Zerbebuth used up his energy reserves showing off and went in for a killing blow when he wore himself down doing so. 

We know that Cronos's biggest problem with its combat types is energy usage. Including the Zoalords. This is why their Zoacrystals are basically batteries to power their own Zoa forms. This is also likely why Aptom runs out of gas so quickly, because he does not have a battery to draw from... Where the Guyver draws its energy from the boost dimension/hyperspace... Thus why it is likely a Guyver Zoalord would be so powerful.

And Aptom was not DESIGNED by Barcas to do what he can do. He was designed to mimic multiple types of Zoanoids, but was always considered a failure as they always came out weaker than wanted. It was Barcas trying to perfect his idea that forced the mutation into what he became... But Barcas had no idea what he was doing and only accidentally created what Aptom now is, and only found out after Aptom told him when he was absorbing Elegan.

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