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Jess♥

Ideas how to deal with ignorant Vegans

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It realy bugs me when i see these vegans or vegetarians who think they are so superior.

they cherish the sanctity of life etc etc.

but they show a remarkable amount of ignorance whilst claiming to be more educated.

they fail to see the bigger picture.

first of all, they say that animals should not be eaten because it is cruel to eat another form of life.

they fail to realise they are discriminating against another form of life. they are suggesting that plant life is somehow less significant than animal life.

they claim that animals suffer. first off, they have no way of knowing if an animal suffers like humans. much of an animals behaviour is instinctive, they can't communicate to us effectively and they don't have the knowledge of good an evil, right and wrong etc. even a human being in an enormous amount of pain can get by without suffering. they show a great lack of understanding of just what 'suffering' is.

besides, animals will die one way or another. in the wild before humans came along, animals would be killed by predators. in some cases.. like with alligators, the animal would certainly not be killed humanely, it would probably experience a lot of distress and pain. so now humans give them a good life, look after them and dispatch them humanely. I would say their situation is a lot better off.

do these vegetarians/vegans think that the animals would be better off if we suddenly stopped eating them? no, we would need much more farming space to grow the plant foods to replace the animals. what would happen to hte livestock? they wouldn't all be kept alive for sure. they would be mass killed. and burnt. their species would likely be extinct or heavily endangered. mass ecosystems would be destroyed because there are things that rely on how the animals are kept. for example, mushrooms that grow on cow manure.

aside from all this, the people who rely on these industries would be ruined. whole industries would be wiped out. there would be lots of suffering. and would the animals benefit? of course not.

I totally respect any person who decides not to at meat for their own personal reason.

If a person cannot deal with the idea that meat comes from animals, then that is their right. I have no problem with ignorant people. I have no problem with people who can't deal with death in animals. what really annoys me is hypocrites who try and convince people to their way of thinking and deny responsibility for their own issues.

/rant over.

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Most of the vegans that I know chose to be one due to health reasons and not moral reasons. it is true that eating mainly vegetables is healthier. But the drawback about eating vegetables only is that they have lesser burst of energy.

For one thing, if they don't want to condemn the animals to die for human consumption, then that means they are condoning that the said animal die for predatory consumption from other predators out there. And if they vehemently forbids the killing of animals for consumption, then I guess we have to feed vegetables to all the animals in the zoo. I wonder what the Lion, the Wolf, the Tiger and all the other carnivores would feel.

If humans should stop eating meat, then perhaps the animals should stop too.

I really don't get those animal activist. Sure, they want to preserve the lives of animals whose race is endangered. I'm fine with all that. I'm even fine with animal activists that condemns slaugthering animals for fashion (fur). But Chickens, pork and beef? That's just absurd and as you say, hypocrisy. I find that those people who use "morality" for their cause are just as immoral as the issue they are campaigning agaisnt. And I'm talking generally about activists.

As the saying goes, too much of anything is bad for you.

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I think it is more needless killing they are opposed to.

Ryuki, the comparison between plants and animals you drew is just nuts.

What led to this rant, anyway? Did a vegan call you names or something?

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I think it is more needless killing they are opposed to.

Ryuki, the comparison between plants and animals you drew is just nuts.

What led to this rant, anyway? Did a vegan call you names or something?

no, I was watching this tv program called "kill it, cook it, eat it".

one of the people participating was a vegan and was such a hypocrite.

the comparison between plants and animals.. not so nuts. we only relate to animals because of their similarity to us. it doesn't make them any more or less alive. that's what i find hypocritical.. because they say things like "look at that wonderful beautiful living creature"

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Plants are living things. This is basic biology. People seem to take plants for granted simply because they cannot act on their own. Nobody seems to notice that there are thousands of plant species on the planet and more and more species become extinct, yet nobody seems to care.

Also, predation is a natural process that is required in order to keep the balance not only in the food chain, but as well as nature itself. If lizards, spiders or any other living creatures that would eat mosquitos stopped eating them, imagine how many swarms of mosquito will plaque us.

Perhaps climate change might be related to the extinction of certain animals.

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Well I think Denis Leary said it best...

Denis1:Don't eat the tunafish, dolphins get stuck in the nets.

Denis2: Well, what about the tunafish?

Denis1: Oh, f*@k the tunafish!

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Yes, Ryuki, but plants do not feel pain. Why not? Because it would not do them any good: they can´t run away. Plus, of course, they have no nervous system and no consciousness (and by that same token, the `lower´ animals don´t feel pain or fear, either). But what do we do? We eat exactly those animals that do have a complex nervous system and are capable of experiencing pain, stress and fear - birds, mammals, fish (maybe less so, but they have less ways to express it), the occasional reptile and amphibian. Not to say invertebrates do not feel pain and fear... but I do feel we can safely say complexity of the nervous system enters into it.

But nevertheless, we humans even eat animals that actually have much larger brains than we do.

It´s not about eating things that are or were alive. It´s about violating consciousness. At least according to me. If something has no consciousness, I don´t think it has rights, because, in a sense, it does not exist. A redwood tree may look impressive, but it has no more self-awareness than a tiny lichen... or a pebble, for that matter.

But... the moment something is capable of experiencing "ouch"... it becomes an issue, no matter how small.

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Yeah Salkafar, I understand completely what you're saying. but I guess i need to clarify on what exactly I meant.

when I was comparing animals to plants it was because of the "ooh it's wonderful beautiful life" factor. plants and animals are no more or less alive than each other so when these hypocrites say we shouldn't eat it because it's 'the sanctity of life' that is what I object to.

in regards to pain and fear, I would have to say that an animal being hunted by a predator in the wild is going to experience a lot of fear and pain and stress. an animal in a slaughter house is not feeling stress because they don't know what is going on. they get no more stress than any other move from a field to another field. then they are stunned so they don't feel any pain or stress. when they are killed they are not even conscious. it is the same as if you and I were just clonked on the head when we were totally unaware. it is the most humane death any animal could ever get and let's face it they ARE going to die, one way or another sooner or later. and the slaughter house is probably the least painful the least stressful.

I can respect your beliefs salkafar. I will not attack anybodies personal beliefs or reasoning for their own choice.

what bugs me is when a person believes they are somehow superior to others. they try and convince everyone that they are on the moral high ground and that everyone should listen to them.

in a respectful fashion, I will convey my own belief in this subject. I believe that animals have consciousness, I believe plants have consciousness. I believe that it is a different form of consciousness. plants do have defence mechanisms. they have spines, poison etc. I believe that when eating something, it is through permission from the thing you are eating. if you eat an apple, it is a gift from the apple tree. if you eat meat, I believe it is a gift from the animal. you could compare to the beliefs of some native american culture. this is my belief though, I won't argue using this as basis.

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Oh, absolutely. Modern-day methods of slaughter are fairly humane. Hell, we should all go so quickly and cleanly. "Wha-huh? Umphh"

Still, while this obviously does not go for the entire husbandry sector, many animals are treated less than humane in the time before they get slaughtered... living creatures, treated like no more than resources. Cattle industry!

And yes, vegans who act all superior... It is so tempting...

"How can you eat something which was once a living, breathing organism? Something that had feelings, just like you do?"

"Heck, lady, get me hungry enough and I´ll even eat you!"

Your final paragraph I have to dismiss in its entirety as being far too romantic.

Edited by Salkafar

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i feel that's a little rude. I mean that's just my belief. you wrote your belief, i merely offered mine as a comparison.

but well whatever, I'll just let it slide.

no problem.

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And yes, vegans who act all superior... It is so tempting...

"How can you eat something which was once a living, breathing organism? Something that had feelings, just like you do?"

"Heck, lady, get me hungry enough and I´ll even eat you!"

LOL! This really made me laugh.

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And yes, vegans who act all superior... It is so tempting...

"How can you eat something which was once a living, breathing organism? Something that had feelings, just like you do?"

"Heck, lady, get me hungry enough and I´ll even eat you!"

LOL! This really made me laugh.

And that, my friends, is what we call Better Living Through Cannibalism. :lol:

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an animal in a slaughter house is not feeling stress because they don't know what is going on. they get no more stress than any other move from a field to another field. then they are stunned so they don't feel any pain or stress. when they are killed they are not even conscious.

I've worked in a slaughter house, so I'm going to disagree with this; at least to a point. I've -heard- that cattle have no idea what's going on, so I can agree with you there. But hogs, they can smell the death. They know they are there to die. They fear it. They look at you, with begging eyes. They don't know exactly how it is going to happen. They are herded into the proper pens and walkways, and given no real options; only the hope that they can find some way to escape. The workers have strict orders not to yell or swear at them, not to stress them out as it would release enzymes and affect the taste of the meat. But you can still hear them scream as they are herded. Then they are zapped, and their throat is slit. You can see some of them twitching still as they bleed out. Some still struggle, their hind legs start kicking, trying to run away as body functions slowly return even though their neck is cut. It's not supposed to happen, but not every shock is perfect. Still, studies show that animals do feel pain, and this is far more humane than simply slitting the throat, despite what some religious organizations say (advocating to kill in the traditional method).

I lived with a Vegan for a while. She had no problem eating meat, except she didn't like the conditions in which they were kept. She doesn't like treating things in warehouse conditions, packing everything so close together. That's the difference between regular production beef and Angus beef. Angus beef is all natural. The cow is allowed to do whatever it would naturally in nature. Eat when and where it wants. Breed when it wants. And there is a difference in the taste. I guess there are many different reasons for being Vegan.

I agree that listening to someone with a superiority complex is annoying. But maybe it is worth it to hear them out. Maybe they actually have a valid point on something. After all, is it not arrogant for ourselves to think that we can learn nothing more? We are not perfect, and there are lots of ways for us to improve. If someone does not preach, then how else will we get the information?

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thanks for the additional information Youngguyver.

that is very interesting.

I had not heard that the hogs can smell the death. I guess that cannot be argued with really.

that does make me think twice... but that is a digression.

I agree that we can always learn new stuff from open minded individuals. we are lucky here that we are not closed minded, when what i am really getting at is the type of person who thinks they know it all when they obviously don't. it seems to me that their argument is an excuse rather than a well thought out decision. it seems to me that they are actually reacting from their own inability to deal with death and are creating a facade.

I guess you can't blame a person after all, if they can't deal with death, acknowledging that might damage their self esteem.

do you think that when a person is in this headspace, is it best to just be sympathetic?

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When they approach you with their propaganda with full passion? Just nod in agreement. I don't think there is anything you can say to put some sense into those kinds of people. Pretty much like everyone else who is full of vigor and enthusiam about what they are representing.

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I think it is more needless killing they are opposed to.

Ryuki, the comparison between plants and animals you drew is just nuts.

What led to this rant, anyway? Did a vegan call you names or something?

no, I was watching this tv program called "kill it, cook it, eat it".

one of the people participating was a vegan and was such a hypocrite.

the comparison between plants and animals.. not so nuts. we only relate to animals because of their similarity to us. it doesn't make them any more or less alive. that's what i find hypocritical.. because they say things like "look at that wonderful beautiful living creature"

I bet he/she wasn't averse to a good quality pair of leather walking boots though, or were they killing/cooking and eating in hemp flip flops?

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Plants DO react to outside stimuli. They grow towards their food (sun) and react defensively when damaged (leaking defensive sap, etc). Ants similarly have no nervous systems, should I eat them without guilt?

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