Justice League

[jerrygoodman]

New Trailer Online:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cxixDgHUYw

"What are your super powers, again?"
"I'm rich."

[Azaar]

My favorite comment I saw on the trailer, from a random person on YouTube:

*shows Dad the trailer*

Dad:  I hate Batman.

Dad:  Why do they have a new Flash?

*cue "Come Together" cover in trailer*

Dad:  I love Batman.

Dad:  When is this coming out again?

In case anyone is interested, though, the cover of "Come Together" was done by Gary Clark Jr. and produced by Junkie XL -- dunno why people are automatically assuming it's the Godsmack cover (which is pretty good in its own right).  I'm hoping it'll be released as a single, but so far the Internet has totally failed me in finding a full-length recording of the Gary Clark Jr./Junkie XL cover.  Keeping my fingers crossed, though.

Oh, and I'm seriously digging the trailer.  And just as epic, the Avengers reaction to the Justice League trailer:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_5HV5MR2Bg

 

[Salkafar]

I am not holding my breath: the Snyder Factor is still in play.

[Guyver1]

43 minutes ago, Salkafar said:

I am not holding my breath: the Snyder Factor is still in play.

Maybe all of their moms names will be Martha... They're the best of friends!! The super friends!! ... wait. I am confused... LOL

[Salkafar]

Wow. Nobody talked about this at all.
 

The movie that killed the DCEU.

[Matt Bellamy]

4 hours ago, Salkafar said:

Wow. Nobody talked about this at all.
 

The movie that killed the DCEU.

To be fair, I thought it was actually alright. I probably talked about it to death with friends and family, so that is why I likely never posted my surprising liking of it.

Definitely needed to be longer... Maybe not 2 movies longer, but definitely at least a half hour if not a full hour. But after reading all the bullshit that was holding it back, it certainly was set up for failure. Suffered from the some of the same tropes that hurt marvel films as well, like a poor villain.

But character wise...

Wonder Woman was alright. I'm not as big a fan of her own movie as some people are, as it essentially was a period piece with a super hero ( aka Captain America, just in a different war), so I don't see her as the "saving grace" that some do. But she was alright here. But of course it did help to have a movie of her own under her tiara.

Batman was better this time around. Definitely closer to what we expect from Batman. BIG shame that he was essentially forced to use guns by the end to get by. They could have made the parademons a bit weaker to allow him to fight better.

Flash was alright. Didn't mind the suit at all, and had some good scenes. Really disliked how he ran though. It just looked kinda awkward.

Cyborg was pretty cool. I didn't have any complaints about him. the CG looked alright as well.

Aquaman was meh... He REALLY could have used a movie beforehand to explain some shit. Also seemed to be on par with Wonder Woman in strength... but both felt REALLY weak in comparison to...

Superman. At least they allowed Cavill to smile and BE Superman. But he was way too overpowered. I mean, sure, he's supposed to be, but Wonder Woman is essentially supposed to be his equal in many stories. And man... The CGI on Superman's suit in that last battle stuck out so badly that I can forgive the mustache issue.

Overall I thought it was a pretty good 5/10. Probably could have been a 6 or a 7 if there had been an extra half hour at least, and if the power scales on the parademons and Superman had been toned down.

The sad takeaway from this, is that they finally got some of the shit right... But are planning on "rebooting" some of it anyway. I honestly want to see another Superman movie now that someone there "gets" him better.

I want to see an Afflek Batman movie similar to an Arkham video game if he were still up for it.

I actually want more now.

So I guess we have to wait and see what plans they have for Flash Point.

[Salkafar]

So wait.

They have barely, barely established the DCEU (at least the most bare-bones version of it I have ever seen) and they're gonna do 'Flashpoint'... after the Flash TV show already did it???

...Funny, this might actually be an author's saving throw. Just say "The original DCEU was a dark, 'bad' version of how the universe is supposed to be".

As I have said before, these big events the movies are emulating in the comics only are presented after the universe is well-established and has had years of development to allow us to get to care about these characters. Man of Steel was not bad per se, although it was needlessly dark for a Superman movie, but the next movie was like skipping over at least six or seven movies right to the bitter end. It took elements of The Dark Knight Returns and The death of Superman, stories which both only worked because they came at the end of decades of comic book storytelling. Marvel was already stretching it with Civil War for similar reasons, but they had several movies' worth of interaction between these characters - and that interaction was far more human than Henry Cavill's aloof, distant Superman and Ben Affleck's demonic Batman. (One thing that was done pretty damn good was drawing the difference between how these guys are in their superhero persona versus their civilian identities. Clark Kent is a serious but regular guy who makes out with his sweetheart. Bruce Wayne is still troubled and tormented, but humanly so. The voice changer mike might be the best find in the movie altogether.)

It all smacked of studio-prescribed demands for big and flashy things which are expected by executives interested only in money to score, regardless of whether the stories or characters were compelling. God love Zach Snyder, but he is not the right director for DC movies. He is on record as saying that he doesn't care about stories without sex and violence (Putting it a little charged here) ever since his brother got him into 2000AD, the famous British science fiction comics anthalogy. Understandable! But inappropriate. We always understood that Superman and Batman probably had sex lives. That did not make it necessary for us to see them actually engaging in them.

(Oddly enough the same doesn't go for Wonder Woman. Her love interest was nominally Steve Trevor, but I am not sure they ever actually had a relationship at all).

So... if they reboot the whole thing... will they hang on to the same actors? Will Henry Cavill get the opportunity to play a happier Superman? It might work. Here's hoping.

[Matt Bellamy]

6 hours ago, Salkafar said:

So... if they reboot the whole thing... will they hang on to the same actors? Will Henry Cavill get the opportunity to play a happier Superman? It might work. Here's hoping.

If anything, I would prefer to keep most of the cast. Changing things too drastically now would ruin it even further.

The only one I think who could be replaced is Affleck, and only because he has said it himself that he isn't happy/possibly too old. And they did play Batman to be older, while every other member is young enough for another 10 years or so without much fuss. But if he was willing, I'd still keep him.

But overall, I just wish the drama would end, and we get some decent movies out of them. It can't be that hard.

[Azaar]

Speaking for myself, I actually enjoyed Justice League pretty well.  Is it as good as Marvel?  Not really, but there are two factors that are worth keeping in mind:

1) The DCEU is effectively a decade behind Marvel, and so it's little wonder that Warner Bros. feels the need to try and rush things along in an attempt to catch up.

2) Everyone keeps comparing it to Marvel and making Marvel out to be gods.

The second factor, I think, is what bothers me the most.  Yes, Marvel did good with Iron Man, the first couple of Captain America movies and such.  The thing I've started seeing, though, is that Disney/Marvel is afraid to change anything up -- we're seeing the exact same formula for GotG Vol. 2 and Black Panther that we saw in Iron Man and Captain America: The First Avenger; ten years, no change to the formula.  And honestly, I don't see that changing any time soon, particularly on Disney's part -- as badly as they've mangled Star Wars (Rogue One being the only decent movie of the three so far, and I think Solo isn't going to be very good either) because they've tried to change everything up to make it theirs, I don't see them taking that risk in tandem with Marvel.  And yet, I think that may ultimately prove to be Marvel's undoing.  But as long as the "critics" keep humping Marvel's leg and trashing anything that isn't Marvel or Marvel-related, I don't see the comparisons ending any time soon.

Now, to be fair, the DCEU hasn't wow'ed either.  I think Man of Steel was rather fun, but at the same time it was a darker take than fans wanted, and BvS was even worse in that regard, particularly with the intent of turning it from being a Superman sequel to being the backdoor intro to Justice League.  I can also agree that Wonder Woman was too much like Captain America: The First Avenger -- that was the one thing I wasn't wild about when it came to the movie when it leaked that the time setting was WWI, in that even choosing a different war, there were still too many similarities to Cap; even so, I still enjoyed it rather well.  I even rather liked Suicide Squad, and Jared Leto's Joker was better than I expected (mostly because I hated the whole tattoo'ed look they did with him).  I still enjoy the movies as a whole, but Snyder does not need to be involved going forward.  Knowing that his take on Watchmen was divisive, and barely making it 15 minutes into 300 before I walked away and tuned it out... he's good with visuals, but he's crap as a director.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Azaar

[Matt Bellamy]

8 hours ago, Azaar said:

Speaking for myself, I actually enjoyed Justice League pretty well.  Is it as good as Marvel?  Not really, but there are two factors that are worth keeping in mind:

1) The DCEU is effectively a decade behind Marvel, and so it's little wonder that Warner Bros. feels the need to try and rush things along in an attempt to catch up.

2) Everyone keeps comparing it to Marvel and making Marvel out to be gods.

The second factor, I think, is what bothers me the most.  Yes, Marvel did good with Iron Man, the first couple of Captain America movies and such.  The thing I've started seeing, though, is that Disney/Marvel is afraid to change anything up -- we're seeing the exact same formula for GotG Vol. 2 and Black Panther that we saw in Iron Man and Captain America: The First Avenger; ten years, no change to the formula.  And honestly, I don't see that changing any time soon, particularly on Disney's part -- as badly as they've mangled Star Wars (Rogue One being the only decent movie of the three so far, and I think Solo isn't going to be very good either) because they've tried to change everything up to make it theirs, I don't see them taking that risk in tandem with Marvel.  And yet, I think that may ultimately prove to be Marvel's undoing.  But as long as the "critics" keep humping Marvel's leg and trashing anything that isn't Marvel or Marvel-related, I don't see the comparisons ending any time soon.

Now, to be fair, the DCEU hasn't wow'ed either.  I think Man of Steel was rather fun, but at the same time it was a darker take than fans wanted, and BvS was even worse in that regard, particularly with the intent of turning it from being a Superman sequel to being the backdoor intro to Justice League.  I can also agree that Wonder Woman was too much like Captain America: The First Avenger -- that was the one thing I wasn't wild about when it came to the movie when it leaked that the time setting was WWI, in that even choosing a different war, there were still too many similarities to Cap; even so, I still enjoyed it rather well.  I even rather liked Suicide Squad, and Jared Leto's Joker was better than I expected (mostly because I hated the whole tattoo'ed look they did with him).  I still enjoy the movies as a whole, but Snyder does not need to be involved going forward.  Knowing that his take on Watchmen was divisive, and barely making it 15 minutes into 300 before I walked away and tuned it out... he's good with visuals, but he's crap as a director.

 

What Marvel is doing is absolutely brilliant, and should be copied and used at all times, IF you want the money they make. So yeah, there are similarities in various movies, and they never really "push" them to be different very often. But you know what they do well? Making good, and fun action movies that have heart. All the Marvel cast is basically likable and you can root for them very easily. Because Marvel understands their audience.

Warner Brothers doesn't understand their audience.

They are more like a group of 60-70 year olds who think they know what their grand kids want. So yeah, Grandma gives you a sweater at Christmas. Sure, it might even be a nice sweater... but you're 10 and you want toys. And that is what Marvel does best. They grab that 10 year old inside us and make us some fun, if sometimes disposable action mixed in with a (relatively) coherent plot with likable characters.

Marvel/Disney wants to make good movies and they know money will come if they do. DC/WB wants to make money by copying a formula, without following the formula precisely. This has been utterly proven with all the news reports about the WB management.

If DC/WB had copied Marvel and keep things fun, exciting with likable characters, only a vast minority of people would ever call them out on it, because the majority would be too busy enjoying the movies.

Not everything has to be Oscar bait or high class cinema. There is a very large market for fun action movies that only seek to entertain.

As for the critics reaction to Marvels movies, but not liking DC's? The majority are correct when Marvel's movies score higher. Some have not been all that good either, but its all up to critics if they judge a movie based on what marvel has already done, or if they review it based on just the movie itself... And they certainly do not have to "hump marvels leg" because Marvel makes enjoyable movies.

DC's recent failures lacked the heart and fun that makes a good action movie. Their last 2 outing where improvements to be sure, but we can tell it hurt the managements egos. Nolan's Batman movies were not "Superhero" movies. They brought one character down to a very realistic level and made a dramatic action movie series. And it worked quite well. But it wouldn't work for all characters. It worked for Batman because he is dark and brooding... but most of DC's characters are nothing like him. They tried to make Batman the rule, instead of the exception to the rule that he is.

Then of course putting Snyder in charge of a series of franchises that he doesn't care about. Kevin Feige is a fan and when he approves a movie, he knows that he will enjoy it as a comic fan. Snyder doesn't care about the comics at all. And it clearly shows. When he directs something he likes, his talent shows off greatly... But you could tell that he just didn't want to do these movies at all.

... This is turning out to be a large rant where I have likely stated my opinion more than once... So I'm just going to end here.

[Salkafar]

Saw it last night. I enjoyed it a lot more than I expected I would.

Couple things:

- They pretty obviously made the colors brighter here and there to contract it to the earlier movies' darker palette. Superman's outfit stands out in particular.

- The CGI is inexcusable. And yes, Cavill's mouth is very, very noticeable.

- Steppenwolf is really the most generic villain. But everybody already said so. It bites me since I am a New Gods fan. Kirby's mythology was baroque, unique and colorful, and Steppenwolf was a symbolic figure as much as anything else: he belonged to an older generation of gods, succeeded by newer, more ruthless deities like his nephew Darkseid.

- The humor works - sometimes a little too well. When the resurrected Superman flies away with Lois Lane it was so abrupt a 'peww'-sound would have fitted perfectly. Here and there it was veering dangerously close to satire and I am now wondering whether that really was not the route they should have taken altogether.

- Aquaman is a total loss. God almighty.

- Introducing three new super-powered characters in the same movie and have them deliver their background stories as monologues? That is... I already used the phrase 'inexcusable'. But that.

- Gal Gadot is perfect.

Still. It's not unsalvageable.

[Azaar]

To reply:

Matt:  I won't deny that what Marvel is doing works -- I'd be an idiot to deny it.  I just wish that Marvel would try to step out of their comfort zone a little more, but that's just me -- they have done so, to be fair, when they opted for Guardians of the Galaxy.  I remember thinking that Marvel had made their first misstep with GotG, and was very pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong when I went to see it after several of my friends said it was excellent.

My hope for DC, going forward, is that Geoff Johns will get more hands-on with things -- like Feige, Johns is a fan of DC.  For crying out loud, Johns is the reason DC's recovering (on the comic-book front) from the travesty that was the New 52.  I want to see him be more involved.  Hell, I want to see Kevin Smith do a DC movie -- as much fun as his episodes of The Flash have been, I want to see that translated to the big screen, because he's also a fan.

Salkafar:  I liked the brightening of the colors -- that, perhaps, has been one of my biggest gripes of the DCEU.  The costumes have been really nice -- I absolutely love Cavill's Superman costume.  I just hated seeing how Snyder intentionally went "dark" with the palette.  The CGI... yeah, some of it left much to be desired, no arguments there.  My problem with Steppenwolf was more that I think WB reached too far by trying to use the New Gods -- they do have an interesting mythology, to be sure, but I liken it to trying to match the coming Avengers: Infinity War with Thanos, without having the leadup with Loki or Ultron as villains.  I wasn't exactly a fan of Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor, but I would have rather had seen the Justice League oppose Luthor's Injustice League (that they hint at with Lex and Deathstroke in post-credits) to be a start, then something like the Hyperclan or White Martians for the second movie, while potentially giving the New Gods a movie of their own and let it serve as a lead-in to a future Justice League movie.

As for Aquaman... I dunno, I actually liked Jason Momoa, and I'm looking forward to the movie in November.  The fact that Amber Heard is co-starring and we'll get to see more of her as Mera has absolutely nothing to do with the desire to watch the movie... okay, Amber Heard is hot.  Still!

As for introducing Flash/Cyborg/Aquaman in Justice League... yeah, I'm with you there.  I think DC rushed Justice League in that regard, like Matt alluded to with how WB/DC is trying to copy some aspects of the Marvel formula, and yet trying to deviate from it at the same time.

[xfool]