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Is there a god yes or no  

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  1. 1. Is there a god yes or no

    • yes
      10
    • no
      7


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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

You asked when the speak about heaven.

Vol.14 Ch.80

625317196_Guyver-Vol_14Ch.80-11_copy_628x962_1.thumb.jpg.91051ca4ed0c8bec69ef4ad470535318.jpg

Vol.17. Ch.103

666750564_Guyver-Vol_17Ch.103-6.thumb.jpg.f71d33c70001e83b6b23083842e1c6a4.jpg

I hope this images could make you understand what I wanted to say.

I believe he took inspiration from Cristian religion and Greek mythology: because how you already mentioned...Zeus, Uranus, Cronus. Also in the manga the aliens call Earh, Gaia.

 

 

It reminds me of the Juche Regime in North Korea. Archanfel is the "eternal leader" and no one has any freedoms especially the other zoalords, like Richard who tried to hijack his position out from under him and now there are 2 more zoalords who have made their intentions known in the manga that they want to usurp him. 

I think Yoshiki was wanting to show his audience on how "some" of Archanfel's subordinates seem to perceive him as a deity. He is the most advanced life form on the planet.  Archanfel was never human. The other Zoalords are formerly human and therefor they came from different religions  and different walks of life. Which also explains why some of the like Richard have that human tendency to want what he has and rule like a deity. But they can't do that as long as he's alive.  Barcas treated him like a god the moment he laid eyes on him when he got stranded on the island.

Some of the other Zoalords act like he is a deity while a few like Richard and some others scorn or are jealous of his power and day dream ways of killing him.  I imagine Archanfel has to talk to the other Zoalords in a way they can understand him even if he is borrowing day to day religious terms when he describes things to them. They're not as intellectually advanced as he is.  

If anything. Archanfel's situation reminds me of David from Prometheus. The Uranus made him and mankind because they could. But that's not good enough for him. He could ask them hundreds of questions about why they tried to kill him and why they left and no answer will ever be good enough because trust was dissolved when they tried to off him. 

It would explain why Archanfel doesn't value life at all because his creators didn't value life aside from being able to create it and manipulate it. When you experience something like that, you develop a different sort of morality and a world view. He was cultivated and raised by the Advents and did what ever it is that they commanded him to do like a good little boy. But the Advents treated life like it was something you cook in the oven at home and if you're not happy with it, throw it in the garbage and start all over again. Which is exactly what they did and when they had that incident with Guyver Zero and they made the decision to make a clean slate somewhere else. 

All in all, he's that  little kid wanting to run off to find his long lost parents because the first answer he got wasn't enough (when they attacked him and sent a comet to destroy earth) It's caused him to have abandonment issues. 

 

Edited by MrDawn
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, MrDawn said:

 

It reminds me of the Juche Regime in North Korea. Archanfel is the "eternal leader" and no one has any freedoms especially the other zoalords, like Richard who tried to hijack his position out from under him and now there are 2 more zoalords who have made their intentions known in the manga that they want to usurp him. 

I think Yoshiki was wanting to show his audience on how "some" of Archanfel's subordinates seem to perceive him as a deity. He is the most advanced life form on the planet.  Archanfel was never human. The other Zoalords are formerly human and therefor they came from different religions  and different walks of life. Which also explains why some of the like Richard have that human tendency to want what he has and rule like a deity. But they can't do that as long as he's alive.  Barcas treated him like a god the moment he laid eyes on him when he got stranded on the island.

Some of the other Zoalords act like he is a deity while a few like Richard and some others scorn or are jealous of his power and day dream ways of killing him.  I imagine Archanfel has to talk to the other Zoalords in a way they can understand him even if he is borrowing day to day religious terms when he describes things to them. They're not as intellectually advanced as he is.  

If anything. Archanfel's situation reminds me of David from Prometheus. The Uranus made him and mankind because they could. But that's not good enough for him. He could ask them hundreds of questions about why they tried to kill him and why they left and no answer will ever be good enough because trust was dissolved when they tried to off him. 

It would explain why Archanfel doesn't value life at all because his creators didn't value life aside from being able to create it and manipulate it. When you experience something like that, you develop a different sort of morality and a world view. He was cultivated and raised by the Advents and did what ever it is that they commanded him to do like a good little boy. But the Advents treated life like it was something you cook in the oven at home and if you're not happy with it, throw it in the garbage and start all over again. Which is exactly what they did and when they had that incident with Guyver Zero and they made the decision to make a clean slate somewhere else. 

All in all, he's that  little kid wanting to run off to find his long lost parents because the first answer he got wasn't enough (when they attacked him and sent a comet to destroy earth) It's caused him to have abandonment issues. 

 

   I don't think Archanfel doesn't value life at all. Even the creators was valuing life: If you remember when some of their own members were killed by Guyver 0 they started to panic. He is a superior being (and he knows this), so he values only those who are similar to him (in power/abilities): Just like we humans do -We don't care when we kill an insect or worm but when there is someone equal to as it's different-. He hates the Uranus and doesn't accept their answer because he sees himself equal to them. Now he wants to destroy them or kill, because they tried to kill him.

Edited by ALASTOR
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On 5/13/2022 at 5:49 PM, ALASTOR said:

   I don't think Archanfel doesn't value life at all.

And he gets that from his creators. 

On 5/13/2022 at 5:49 PM, ALASTOR said:

  Even the creators was valuing life: If you remember when some of their own members were killed by Guyver 0 they started to panic. 

That's absurd. That goes in with someone declaring they're pro-life but they're also pro-capital punishment.  Either you value all life or you don't at all. There's no 2 sides of the fence. Just because the Advents created life doesn't mean they value it. They were quick to want to destroy Earth. That doesn't look like a people that values life. That tells me that they don't value  life unless it's a specific life form that suits their agenda. 

On 5/13/2022 at 5:49 PM, ALASTOR said:

  He is a superior being (and he knows this), so he values only those who are similar to him (in power/abilities)

No, Archanfel is a manipulative controlling narcissist. He's doing what he's designed to do, control others like the Advents intended. He helped create the other zoalords to help him with that control. If they piss him off like Richard did then they're as good as dead. You're not thinking why the other zoalords are scared of him.  Richard had every right to fear him during their confrontation. Archanfel even killed his own zoanoids for seeing him at Mount Minakami. 

This is a guy that owns a corporation that kills millions of people and zoanoids if they don't appeal to his wants and agenda. The manga has shown that. 

On 5/13/2022 at 5:49 PM, ALASTOR said:

    Just like we humans do -We don't care when we kill an insect or worm but when there is someone equal to as it's different-.

That's a No True Scotsman. We have serial murderers, rapists, and child molesters who don't value human life and see other people as objects. Then you have people with warped religious values that if you're not part of their goat herd and don't worship their sky father, they could care less about you because you're not worth it. We have people serving in the military that are taught to kill for their country. They're not trained to value life, but to defend the lives of their countrymen by taking the lives of those that threaten their country. 

I've met people that are so Pro-Life that it's a big deal to them and they're not keen on killing anything at all, that includes animals. Some people are vegetarian because they don't want animals killed. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, MrDawn said:

That's absurd. That goes in with someone declaring they're pro-life but they're also pro-capital punishment.  Either you value all life or you don't at all. There's no 2 sides of the fence. Just because the Advents created life doesn't mean they value it. They were quick to want to destroy Earth. That doesn't look like a people that values life. That tells me that they don't value  life unless it's a specific life form that suits their agenda.

You are saying, "if I kill flies, mosquitoes, ants and wasps because they are annoying me: I'm not pro-life...? Or I don't value life at all?

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4 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

You are saying, "if I kill flies, mosquitoes, ants and wasps because they are annoying me: I'm not pro-life...? Or I don't value life at all?

I can't read the other guy's posts, but it's important to note that pro life is also pro death. for any human to exist, they must also cause death of another lifeform. to be alive, we must eat. even plants are lifeforms, and infections will kill us unless we kill them. I would be concerned if a person got headlice and decided they refuse to kill those insects and just let them live and breed on their body.

To value the life of a lifeform completely, you must value the death of all the other lifeforms that is required to keep it alive.

regarding the death of wasps, etc. well, wasps can cause pain and even allergic reaction that could lead to death, ants can spread bacteria onto food surfaces, which can lead to death and so on.  killing pestilence is pro life, because it safeguards the lives of humans. it's instinctive.

when we say pro life, it is implied that we mean a specific life. These days it usually means valuing the life of undeveloped humans who can't survive on their own, over the life of adult human victims of rape. In those cases, a middle ground is required. if people want to stop a woman getting an abortion then those people should sign up to adopt the child when it is born and pay all her medical expenses, etc.

Should we even be discussing these issues though?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, ALASTOR said:

You are saying, "if I kill flies, mosquitoes, ants and wasps because they are annoying me: I'm not pro-life...? Or I don't value life at all?

We're getting off track. Explain to me why do you think the Advents value life even though they tried to destroy Earth with a comet? 

If they were willing to do that, theoretically what about all of the other planets that they destroyed for whatever reason? 

Edited by MrDawn
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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2022 at 10:02 PM, MrDawn said:

We're getting off track. Explain to me why do you think the Advents value life even though they tried to destroy Earth with a comet? 

If they were willing to do that, theoretically what about all of the other planets that they destroyed for whatever reason? 

When I read from Vol.14 Ch.86 to Vol. 15 Ch.89, I see them very United among them selves. That's what I perceive. They always say "us". I know they treat humans like objects/tools: When they comand Archanfel to kill the human, which was bonded to the unity-G (Vol.15 Ch.88 page 50), they say "DESTROY IT"....That's all.

Edited by ALASTOR
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Posted (edited)

Despite being a person who dearly wishs for the universe to be filled with gods, monsters, aliens etc, I have never seen anything that convinces me that such things exist. Well aliens are a high probability but not in the way we like to imagine. The closet I ever got to anythings supernatural I came to realise was just the product of groggy mind waking up, worse I found myself embellishing it mentally with fantasies of my own as time when on. These days even the memory is a patchwork of recollection and imagination.

Sadly the human experience, even our own, is not as reliable as we like to believe and thats totally excluding lies. So many things, chemicals, trauma, your own mind making things up and even things like infrasound, can affect your senses and even emotional state that you can genuinely see something that is totally real to you, but is not.

I've come to accept that no god plays a part in my life, my actions, good and bad, are my own and my reasonability. My morality and values  were crafted by life experience, as are my flaws. The rest is just the random whims of living on a planet with so much else going on it.

And if I'm wrong, well then whatever deity in the universe wanted me to worship them should have put some real effort in. 😛

Edited by The Tremas Master
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The Advents / Uranus don't Value Life, they valued the experiment ultimately. They wanted an army and were willing to put huge resources and time into it (countless millions of years). 

 

They were (are, we don't know if they still are by the current time line) part of a huge Federation, the core of which was called the Central Federation that used Unit G as a day to day suit and was key in this inter species group in talking with each other and was their space suit for commanding their ships. The Unit G was a past successful experiment. But the moment they realised all life on Earth was tainted by a flaw called Guyver and that Archanfel could become a and effective God of Destruction they tried to wipe everything out. 

 

Simple fact is, if they thought for a second we survived another giant moon would have been sent to finish the Earth off. Here is the thing though, it doesn't clearly state if it was the Uranus who sent the Moon or the Central Federation who decided to mothball Earth. The Uranus left in rush, and had to leave leaving behind ships they never expected to survive Earths destruction but that could be due to the deadline given to them. 

 

So which group was the one that actually pulled the trigger and owned the weapon that sent the huge moon / planetoid is up for debate. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think that part could benefit from a translation check. If I may....

(the original is written in katakana to indicate alien language, but I'm writing in hiragana to aid translation)
お前たち”人類”の最も忌むべき形態”殖装体”
それは危険きわまる”ガイバー”だ
制御不能でありながら強大な戦闘力を備えたこの”殖装体”の出現は
我々にとって比類なき脅威となるだろう
我々は先の事件を”中央”に報告し指示を仰いだ
事態を重くみた”中央”審議会が下した結論は...
プロジェクトの打ち切りとおまえたちの”根絶”だ
すでに”中央”は天体破壊規模”オペレーション”を発動した
我々もぐずぐずしてはおれぬのだ
さらばだアルカンフェル

YOU "HUMANITY"-S MOST ABOMINABLE FORM "BIO-BOOSTED BODY"
IS THE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS "GUYVER"
A "BIO-BOOSTED BODY" BOTH OUT OF CONTROL AND WITH POWERFUL FIGHTING STRENGTH HAS ARISEN AND
BECOME AN UNPARALLELED THREAT TO US
WE REPORTED THE INITIAL INCIDENT TO "CENTRAL" AND ASKED FOR INSTRUCTIONS  (Central is a place, like a capital)
"CENTRAL" COUNCIL ASSESSED THE GRAVE CIRCUMSTANCES AND MADE THE DECISION... (council/ commission of inquiry)
OF ENDING THE PROJECT AND "ERADICATING" YOU ALL
ALREADY, "CENTRAL" HAVE INITIATED A PLANETARY DESTRUCTION SCALE "OPERATION" (celestial body, but planetary sounds better)
WE CAN'T LINGER
FAREWELL ALKANFEL

 

I don't know why the scanlated manga says 'central federation', it gives the impression of an organisation separate from the Uranus, but the original manga doesn't really imply that.

Edited by Tora Tan
changed to capitals, to reflect how it's written in manga
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2 hours ago, Larz Zahn said:

It sounds like central could be equivalent to headquarters.

 

Like I gotta send this request to corporate hq for approval. 

It is like that,  yes.  But it can also mean the seat of government.  So essentially it is referring to the physical centre of power in their society, whether that be a HQ or a parliament or a Palace.


But the kanji used are 'inside' and 'centre',  and often used to mean seat of government or capital city or middle or heart.

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Even if it's just "Central", the Uranus on Earth didn't make the choice. It was made for them and as you put it, Central pulled the tigger.

Which means any Uranus that hung around by accident would have been killed with us too if not for Archanfel. But the story points to none of them staying behind, their just ships they were willing to let be destroyed. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/24/2022 at 6:59 PM, Tora Tan said:

I think that part could benefit from a translation check. If I may....

(the original is written in katakana to indicate alien language, but I'm writing in hiragana to aid translation)
お前たち”人類”の最も忌むべき形態”殖装体”
それは危険きわまる”ガイバー”だ
制御不能でありながら強大な戦闘力を備えたこの”殖装体”の出現は
我々にとって比類なき脅威となるだろう
我々は先の事件を”中央”に報告し指示を仰いだ
事態を重くみた”中央”審議会が下した結論は...
プロジェクトの打ち切りとおまえたちの”根絶”だ
すでに”中央”は天体破壊規模”オペレーション”を発動した
我々もぐずぐずしてはおれぬのだ
さらばだアルカンフェル

YOU "HUMANITY"-S MOST ABOMINABLE FORM "BIO-BOOSTED BODY"
IS THE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS "GUYVER"
A "BIO-BOOSTED BODY" BOTH OUT OF CONTROL AND WITH POWERFUL FIGHTING STRENGTH HAS ARISEN AND
BECOME AN UNPARALLELED THREAT TO US
WE REPORTED THE INITIAL INCIDENT TO "CENTRAL" AND ASKED FOR INSTRUCTIONS  (Central is a place, like a capital)
"CENTRAL" COUNCIL ASSESSED THE GRAVE CIRCUMSTANCES AND MADE THE DECISION... (council/ commission of inquiry)
OF ENDING THE PROJECT AND "ERADICATING" YOU ALL
ALREADY, "CENTRAL" HAVE INITIATED A PLANETARY DESTRUCTION SCALE "OPERATION" (celestial body, but planetary sounds better)
WE CAN'T LINGER
FAREWELL ALKANFEL

 

I don't know why the scanlated manga says 'central federation', it gives the impression of an organisation separate from the Uranus, but the original manga doesn't really imply that.

Well, I guess you don't need me anymore. :mrgreen:

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, durendal said:

Well, I guess you don't need me anymore. :mrgreen:

not true at all, I believe you are a lot faster than I am!  It takes me a long time to do this because I have to type in the kanji, my vocabulary is patchy and my kanji knowledge is incomplete.

You have always been one of the most loved and valuable parts of this community :monkey-z032:

Edited by Tora Tan
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