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Tales

What's wrong with today's Rider?

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or maybe, as my brother is trying to point out, by using kamen instead of masked, they are indicating that they are going back to the old skool way of doing things. the feel of the latest trailer, and the return of the scarf also point to this.

The X-factor that makes Kamen Rider Kamen Rider is more than a scarf. It's what inside the characters that attracts fans in the first place.

Like transformers; They are Transforming humanoid robots warring with among themselves and humans. But deep down inside there is part of them that connects with us. Transformers and us ain't much different from us.

For Kamen Rider: On the outside it's a masked bike riding hero with a scarf. But deep down, he's a man who lost something to injustice and doesn't want to see others suffer the same.

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My two cents. The only two series I've watched Pre-Den-O have been 555 and Kabuto. Both of which had depressing sub-human characters who struggled with their right to exist and interact with the rest of humanity as well as oppression from big business and the government. In Den-O and Decade we have slapstick humor and friendship rants which existed previously but never in such massive amounts. I'd thought that the producers were targeting a more childish audience, and that mention of Bandai merging with Disney easily reaffirms that sentiment. Disney is crap in my opinion, racist too, just check youtube. :mrgreen: Also every series after Den-O (including) gives like 20 opportunities for supporting characters to die...BUT THEY JUST WON'T DIE! When the contract with the imagins expired but wait Ryoutarou found a way to keep all his fwuends, when Natsumi had her soul taken by the Perfecter but Tsukasa managed to get it back in time; etc.

Two more cents. Justice and vindication while being an outcast of society was definitely at the center of the first 10 Kamen Rider series at least. It was the same for 555 and Kabuto. Den-O had absolutely none of that, and Tsukasa got his belt (powers) in what is easily the dumbest way possible. Some whore (Natsumi) found it next to a couple of rocks and handed it to him. Because of that alone he decided it was his fate to travel across all the worlds and save them. This is where the cliche of amnesia comes into play, because he's already familiar with the belt's powers he assumes this is his destiny without needing to explain crap to the audience.

I like Decade and the concept of Kiva really appeals to me, but I have to admit as I'm watching Den-O I have trouble sitting through one episode without doing something else. I'm actually putting off watching the series while when I watched 555 and Kabuto I would forget things like eating and going to sleep because I was too absorbed!

Edited by Renegade

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A better example is Batman I think.

If Batman was light hearted, it would be Batman anymore wouldn't it. Batman and Kamen Rider actually are quite similar, they both lost something to injustice.

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The X-factor that makes Kamen Rider Kamen Rider is more than a scarf. It's what inside the characters that attracts fans in the first place.

yeah thats why he said the scarf points to this (possibility)

I really get the feeling you just aren't listening...

I've tried explaining my point in a number of different ways and you just seem to be ignoring, or talking about something else.

I'm trying to say that maybe these shows aren't meant to be the same. they aren't supposed to be kamen rider and thats why named different.

should i just stop visiting this thread?

am i wasting my time here?

it seems like you're just looking for a reason to insult some of the recent shows and perhaps my trying to come up with an explaination is taking away your opportunity to attack these shows?

maybe this is why you've had experience with people flaming you? because perhaps you really just want to insult the shows?

I'd really prefer to find some peace. if you are upset that the shows are not kamen rider, then my idea that they are not MEANT to be, might help you to accept them instead of attacking them. that way everyones happy.

but once again, I may be just wasting my time and maybe i shouldn't try to get peace. maybe this thread is just meant for screaming and shouting about the recent series. perhaps it's not meant to be intelligent discussion, maybe it's an emotionally charged hate-fest.

you choose.

if you want to keep it as a place just to slag off recent series' then please let me know and i'll change the title of the thread to 'recent rider slag off thread'. ( maybe not so blunt)

edit:

just to clarify, this is how i'm feeling. I'm getting a little frustrated because I feel ignored. I feel like my point is not being understood and i don't feel like you are trying to understand.

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additional:

since kamen rider W has not even started airing yet, I don't thnk you can say anything about the show possibly following the core of what made kamen rider what it was.

how can you make a judgment on kamen rider W yet? have you read a synopsis ?

I don't know too much about it myself... but from what i do know I realise that it is easily possible for teh main hero to be tragic and outcast.

is there some way that you can be sure that kamen rider W will not be true to the original ?

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Whoa Whoa... wait hold it there cool down. I am looking thru at what you just said, I am watching the older series and new series. It's better to do more research before saying things. That's why I didn't go with the title issue you mentioned becos I dunno about that until I look into the matter intensively

If I have I said anything wrong earlier then I am very sorry. Ok I have looked thru the title slates of the old riders and the modern ones. Indeed I did discover that the Showa Riders did not have the title of "Masked Rider". Kuuga [Heisei] did not have the title. It only started with Agito, then did the Masked Rider title came in. However as far as I know having watched most of them from start to finish. I can see that the "Masked Rider" brought the Kamen Rider series more variety in motifs and broke new ground. But whether this has caused a change in attitude is a big ?.

But having enjoyed Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Blade, and loathing Hibiki, Kabuto, Den-O, Kiva, I would say the "Masked Rider" had done something to the series. You did mentioned a good point, Ryuki. Currently it would seem like the "仮面ライダ" title and the "Masked Rider" title are fighting some silent battle for the spotlight.

"仮面ライダ"= The old ideas but with humanity and heart VS "Masked Rider"= The new ideas and comedy

Please forgive me.

Edited by Tales

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About the title, well I have no comments on that since even I didn't take notice on it. But it shouldn't have too much an effect on the attitude that Toei has on Kamen Rider. There has to be other reasons perhaps?

is there some way that you can be sure that kamen rider W will not be true to the original ?

Well I have to apologize for Tales. He's just letting off 4 years of steam. Apparent like our friend Tiga and the kid who created that video I just saw, Tales and I have no faith that W might bring back the Rider in Kamen Rider after having watched Toei for 4 years destroyed the aspects of Kamen Rider with excessive comedy, bad writing.etc and it's a terrible feeling of helplessness as one watches the hero that one knew and love get destroyed by the very company that help in its conception in the beginning.

It sorta like the writer of Guyver, which I am enjoying very much, destroys the iconic bio boosted hero with comedy or inrelevant stuff that takes away what we like about Guyver.

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I am really sorry if I said anything wrong Ryuki. T_T Toei has completely shattered our faith that that could bring back the Kamen Rider[before hibiki] we knew and love.

Anyway if the Kamen Rider shows ain't meant to be Kamen Rider, then why do they call it Kamen Rider? or put the 仮面ライダ on it. I really question if they deserve this title 仮面ライダ at all.

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To be completely honest, I find the debate regarding Kamen Rider and Masked Rider somewhat shallow. It's not really the fault of the name. Okay, we all have to thank Saban for marring the name "Masked Rider", which is why most old school fans hate the term "Masked Rider". But it's technically the same name. What we really have to question is not how the producers want the show to become, but more on what's making money, which is what's driving the producers in the direction the riders are going now. In the past few series, we've seen a lot, and I mean a lot of merchandise that keeps coming out that is related to the show. More variety means more toys to sell, even if the story isn't really that great, as long as they have something they can sell, and audiences that is willing to buy them, the trend will continue. Ratings may go down, but toy sales are going up. So which data are they going to heed? Toy sales of course. Look at how many SIC figures they managed to churn out on Den-O? Unlike the showa riders, once ratings go down, the producers would do something to change the direction of the show, just so that the ratings would go up. Even now, Decade is still airing and W is yet to be aired, and yet, toys are already up for sale like the "Metal Shaft", "Trigger Magnum", and that bigass contraption of a truck that holds the riders arsenal. Heck, even the "Double Driver" is on sale. I haven't seen the show, but I already know what the henshin belt looks like. Remember, in Japan, it's the toy company that makes the show. And as long as the toy company makes money out of the toys, they will continue to do the show irregardless of how good or how bad the show is. We always hear this: "Kono ban gumi wa guran sponsor no tekyo de okurishimasu" (this show is brought to you by the following sponsors)

My point, it's the money that's driving the direction of the riders. In the words of Jerry Mcguire, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!"

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No no It's my fault. I didn't understand the name subject on this issue so I went offsubject while find information on another firefox window on this before I comment.

Edited by Tales

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thanks tales, I only wanted it to be understood. if people don't agree then that's fine.

People all have their own views, I just think it's important that we can communicate effectively.

I was thinking about guyver last night and how i would feel if guyver suddenly got changed.

well guyver is not finished and still being penned by the same writer.

ishinomori is no longer making this show. and the original has already finished. so I can't really compare. but there are fan-fictions for guyver. the fanfictions sometimes concentrate on aspect that i don't like.

durendal is making a very good point though.

and this is similar as my previous idea that masked rider is taking the spot that sentai previously filled. the target audience is changing the show.

although i just think that the use of 'masked rider' on the title is just so they can say, it is able to be changed drastically.

but look at masked rider Ryuki. there was so much potential for toy sales from that series...

so i think it's more about target audience and who they can aim it towards in order to get maximum sales from toys. and so the style of the show changes in that respect.

even the new red dwarf that was made had a blatant advert in the middle of it for DVD's.

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This one is by RIDERWILL from Japan Hero Access

Perhaps we need to live with the fact Toei deals mainly with the modern Japanese audience today. Unlike their counterparts in the 70s or 80s, the new Japanese generation seems to lack confidence and they just want to separate themselves from other people. I have read a recent news that it is now becoming popular that the Japanese take their lunch boxes to toilet to enjoy the privacy there. Probably, that is why Ryotaro in Den O appeals more to the modern generation than the older more hot-blooded heroic type characters.

So in Japan there is no room for the heroic type character anymore? That's sad.

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I think the old gen and new gen thing is just a misname.

More importantly I think we are debating on the subject becos we as fans see that the show isn't delivering or executing it well. Comedy is fine but there are somethings that cannot have a quality slack.

For Example,

We see that in the previous years Kamen Rider there are a lot of more places being filmed like say in Black, they filmed in much more places. Like say a Yacht with a party, downtown in the city with young dancers in the streets, shipyards, train tunnels, a village even.

Today Riders have a lesser portfolio of venues to film. Mostly within the city only or in parks; I could be wrong but some of these places are recognizable to the sharp eyes.<br><br>I think what we need is an objective opinion from a Japanese fan of the franchise from Japan.<br><br>Maybe the Japanese old Rider fans are also having great underground debate in silence.<br>

Edited by Tales

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Maybe, but also realise that after Black RX ended Kamen Rider didn't come out with a new series until Kuuga back in 2000. It was off the air for almost 10 whole years (with the exceptions of ZO and J I think...didn't their movies come out in 1994?).

SO it could be that within that time frame of being off the air, the Toei may have lost some rights to shoot in those areas from the Showa Era. Hence why Rider series of the Heisei Era have only a small area to shoot their footage.

Plus, with the economy the way it is now, even if Toei wanted to obtain rights to shoot in more areas for newer Rider and even newer Sentai and Ultrman series, it'd be hard with all the shows having a tighter budget than before.

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Guest CompleteDeka

shin was '92, ZO was '93 and J was '94. plus the team up, kamen rider world was in '94 also.

but on the subject of different filming areas, i think modern riders do have lots of places as well. some of the locations in kuuga are quite different to faiz, or ryuki for example. then hibiki, which again was very different, with mostly forest areas. we have also had lots of different locations in decade, to signify different worlds.

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I see...

Anyway all in all, we will need the true opinion from a Kamen Rider fan from Japan.

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Either way, I suppose most of us old gen rider fans unless we take action, will have to come to terms with the fact that perhaps the good story, deep meaning heroes that we grew up with will never return. Gone.... they are history, forgotten and ignored by the newer fans.

A dark age has begun.....

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I wouldn't say they are ignored, gone or forgotten. have you neglected to consider the movies, " the first" and "the next"?

also, I am sure they are continuing with this movie thing and bringing out V3 sometime soon?

also, remember the fact that the BEST episode of kamen rider decade was the episode with black RX in it...

the old riders are not forgotten by anybody. they are celebrated as they should be, as relics of a bygone age.

they are like the treasured antiques that some people collect.

the people who made those series back then are no longer making the shows. dekared was telling me about this the other day.. how they found it so difficult to do amazon, because the creators were no longer available.

they don't have the same people so if they try really really hard to make something very much like teholder series, they may totally mess it up.

perhaps it is best that they just stick with what they are good at?

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Well maybe...

But dun forget we may not be in the best position to comment afterall. We are overseas fans. To be more objective and fair, it is best to listen to what a fan from Japan has to say about this subject since they affect the show and its evolution.

Toku itself is one of Japan's native culture just like Anime. If the natives do not care about it and let it sink. What position are we to tell them to take pride in their culture?

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well yes of course you are right.

we aren't exactly paying to watch these shows.. they aren't available to us.

do you know anybody in japan?

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unfortunately no... if I speak and understand Japanese perhaps it would be easier to converse with them.

All in all, it's their culture. It's like some Singaporean chinese refuse to take pride in learning Chinese. Something I didn't do becos I am feel that I am Chinese so I must speak Chinese.etc

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Tales, I'm surprised that even though you are a Chinese Singaporean, you speak english very well. Most of the Singaporean I've spoken to either speak straight chinese, or speak english and always end their sentences with a "la". No more la. (to be honest, I'd understand them more if they speak chinese. I can't understand their english very well due to the accent.)

Anyway, without getting strayed from the topic. I think that most old gen fans in Japan have already outgrown the toku (there are probably a few who stayed loyal). Most of those who watched them in Japan on TV are probably in their late 30's or 40's now. And those who currently watch the current riders are new generation of fans. Why else would they market those toys to children? Any adult who purchased henshin belts would know that the belt doesn't fit them, and had to make some adjustments so they could wear the belt. Remember that there was a long break in between series from Showa to Heisei. So there might be fans who lose track of the franchise.

And yes, I agree that most of the current riders look like girly men. But hey, girly men are popular with girls in Japan. Most of the current riders come from other J-drama. So I guess you could say the producers are also drawing female audiences using bishi actors. When I'm watching any heisei rider series, most females who are passing by behind me would say, "Hey, that's _____, he's the guy from [J-drama]. Isn't he cute?"

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True actually the actors being girly matters least to me. The bigger problems I have is the executing of the story and script. But how to describe this.... hmm<br><br>Is it the scenery? The atmosphere and setting? Something is just missing? Or it touches less on the human heart.<br>

Edited by Tales

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Guest CompleteDeka

I wouldn't say they are ignored, gone or forgotten. have you neglected to consider the movies, " the first" and "the next"?

also, I am sure they are continuing with this movie thing and bringing out V3 sometime soon?

shhh, no-one tell him that the second movie "the next" dealt with V3.

lol, the third movie, probably called Kamen Rider: Zero, will probably deal with riderman, and his battle with V3. this speculation has been going round since the video for "the next decade" where Gackt, as riderman, enters a bar which is rather prominently called Zero.

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