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Tales

What's wrong with today's Rider?

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Hmm right.....

But grown man screaming in the face of a daddy long legs? Nah, it's nothing. A real coward is one who uses power to bully his prey. Those that remind you of the Riders who abuse their final forms?

As for view on Pre Den-O Riders, Gimme some time to come up with something. I am doing thumbnails for a fanfic Kamen Rider. I will post up soon.

Sorry if any offence. Really, we fans of the older and more better Riders have been under attack by those fans who defend Den-O.etc. I bet two cents that most have never seen how heroic the old Riders are. And now burnt by flame wars online, some of us like me feel kinda oppressed by the majority only to find comfort with similar friends and more. So we have been kinda beening hiding our feelings....

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that's ok.

I'm not really offended. you can point out your dislike for anythinhg..

try not to get too heated though ;)

when people like something, if you blatantly insult that thing, the people who like it can take it as an insult as well.

I understand what you are saying about the final form ride and bullying.

that is an interesting way of looking at it.

you do think about this very carefully don't you?

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Yeah... we hard core fans becos of our long history with the franchise have seen almost all the gimmicks that the franchise has pull so overtime we become sorta like critics. So we do think before we say things. Some of us like me even act! I meant we analyse the story, plot, fighting choreography.etc.

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Guest SpaceSheriffShariban

I dislike the Heisei Riders in general.

Showa ones were much more badass.

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care to explain my new friend. Hey do you might if you post your act of courage; your youtube rant in this thread.

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SpaceSheriffShariban has been the most courageous to speak out about the problems of the current Rider series. So far, we fans of the older series have been driven underground and burnt in forums. This forum is our last refuge against the Den-O fans out there.

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Technically speaking Black and Black RX were aired during the Heisei era. But you know what I mean. Black is actually the first Rider that I have completely watched. I loved Black especially the ending song (long long ago 20th century), such a sad song. But I also love some of the Heisei Riders like Kabuto and Blade. Although my knowledge of the riders are quite limited, I have already encountered them during my childhood. My first encounter with a Rider was with V3. I had stickers of V3 collaborating with Spiderman when I was a kid. Also had the sticker of Rider 1, Rider 2, V3, X and Riderman hand in hand. I was always curious and wanted to watch the show they were in, but I didn't had the resources then.

Suffice to say, although I grew up with the Showa Riders, I also happen to enjoy some of the Heisei Riders.

Also, I think the most obvious difference in the Showa Riders and Heisei Riders is the involvement of Ishimori.

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I watched a bit of the video, but as many know by now at the moment I am limited bandwidth.

I find it interesting you say about teh CGI.

I think that in many ways that is true...

but let me tell you my own situation.

I personally do not feel like i want to watch the old series'.

now, I am sure the story is much better... but that's not the reason.

also, the special effects.. while i am quite fond of CGI, I don't think bad special effects is a reason not to watch a good story.

what's important to me is the atmosphere of something.

after watching the movie "the second" I got a bad feeling about these style of show. I do not know if the atmosphere of the show will be the same, but i got very depressed by it.

it's more to do with the filters used on the camera along with hte choice of music.

I am also the same with any genre of tv or movies.

I dislike old movies and I dislike old tv.

It has taken me a long long time to watch star trek the original series. even now I am watching it but not all episodes. I checked online for the best rated episodes and skip all hte others.

I wonder if you can relate to this viewpoint?

I'd like to finishe watching your video next week. I was enjoying it up to the point i turned it off.

P.S. That's my favourite thing about this place. Flaming etc. is forbidden.

so many other places have such hostile people. everyone here is mostly nice :D

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hey Ryuki sorry to bump this topic anyway. And no offense really. I just befriended SpaceSheriffShariban recently who just did an act of courage perhaps in a forum where he would be potentially be in danger of being flamed. At HJU, the flame wars have been ignited by some other members who have boldly spoke up. Now it's rising to new heights.

But as long as Toei destroys the Rider franchise through comedy and bad scripts, there will be those who wish for the good old Riders who will speak up.

Which asks the question. What do we like about Kamen Rider in the first place?

Edited by Tales

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I also seem to notice another big difference between the Showa Riders and Heisei Riders. The story in the Showa Riders were mostly driven by tragedy, while the Heisei Riders are more of a struggle driven story.

Back then, it is extremely difficult to make CGI effects, that is why they have to compensate it by making the story really good. But nowadays, the show seems to target younger audiences, so having a complex story will shy away younger viewers.

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Ok, I can understand where you two (Tales & Space Sheriff) are coming from. I can't say I like Kuuga as I've never seen it and I've never really watched the older Showa Era Riders as I don't have any of their series.

Warning ----- upcoming rant may contain spoilers for people not familiar with Heisei Riders Agito - Decade.

Now as for the series of Agito to Decade and their attributes. Yes, I do agree that Kamen Rider today is more metal hero in persay but in retrospect it's a new generation of Riders with a much more powerful enemy so new powers and forms may be needed. not always but some.

I do believe that a normal person should be given the chance to fight the good fight and that it shouldn't always be a modified human or a half-breed (Wataru from Kiva). If people think you have to be modified to just be a Rider then that's just one trakc thinking IMO.

I respect your feeling with your love of the older series so I will not bash you on them as I don't see anything wrong with your love and respect with them. I do think that CGI does make some good use for certain scenes but it shouldn't be heavily relied on. Now with creatures like Kivat-bat III and Kivalla, yes, they should use some CGI as they are small flying objects with many intricate parts.

Agito and G are good in trying to respect the older series, G being a modified human from an evil organization and Agito being an ascended human. The only Heisei Riders that were actual normal humans were, from what I could gather form actual series viewing and video snippets, Kuuga, Ryuki, Blade, Den-O, Kabuto and Decade.

Agito, Faiz, Hibiki, G and Kiva were the only ones of the 11 current Heisei Riders to be either modified or evolved humans. Agito (ascended human), Faiz (evolved human), Hibiki (Oni), G (modified human), Kiva (half-demon).

Now a lot of Riders have been getting to much armor looking so a simple way of getting back to basics with design is in order. G has started this really well and it seems tha W may be doing this too.

Now not all of Den-O was terrible. The time traveling idea was a good one but, yes, you're right in the heavily used forms. But with Decade, it seems that they're moving away from that.

Now, out of all the 11 Heisei Rider series, Faiz and Blade were some of the best. Like you said, Faiz was a Rider with attitude and his enemy was an evil organization which created his Rider system (Kabuto only shared this too but I can see your point on this series). Blade was also good as BOARd was also a small type of villain in that the Riders didn't know that they were being used to fix their companies mistakes until half way through. Plus Blade became what he had been fighting all the time just to save Hajime. IMO, Blade was the only Heisei Rider series that had a the best series ending.

I couldn't stand Hibiki. No Rider series should be made into a musical. Kabuto, it had a nice feel but, yes, Sendou's character was a bit much. Den-O, I already stated.

Kiva, now this series had some potential. It was good in many respect but it also had its many let downs. The series was riddled with unfinished plots and many other plot holes. Now the fight choregraphy was excellent in this series and the suit design was by far one of the best since Faiz. The Zanvat sword could have been left out of the series. It was a real waste of time and money on that idea. Emperor form is actually a good idea for that series as it isn't an all god power form as it can be beaten by stronger opponents if Kiva isn't careful. Plus, for one to use the Kiva system, one must be either a Fangire or a Fandiri (half-fangire).

Decade is by far the best series since Blade. Some of its world arcs could have been thought out better (Faiz and Blades world arcs especially) but it's a great series. The world arcs for Agito, Hibiki and Black/RX are the best one by far. I can't say anything for Den-O's arc as it's just the same as the Den-O series itself. Now Decade's Rider system is a good one as it was created by Dai Shocker even though Decade himself isn't a modified human (as we know of at the moment). His design is left to be desired but it grew on me. His design for Complete Form is totally hidious. But it gives true definition to what you said about God power. But he can still be beaten while using it.

So in your video you made many good and vaildated points. I just hope I made some of my own as well.

Edited by Toku Warrior

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hey Ryuki sorry to bump this topic anyway. And no offense really. I just befriended SpaceSheriffShariban recently who just did an act of courage perhaps in a forum

Bumping topics is not a crime here.

to be honest I think it makes a lot more sense than starting a new topic and losing all the interesting discussion that has gone before.

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Speaking of Decade, I'm not really happy with the way things are going. I have to admit, Decade was one of the reason why I started watching the other Heisei Riders, (which I think was a successful tactic). But what I didn't like is how they keep sticking to the premise of visiting worlds and not actually giving emphasis on the main story. Up until episode 26, I still don't know what's been going on with Tsukasa besides from him traveling to world. I guess this is one part where they could still improve on.

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it was a good question though.. as to what we like about kamen rider?

as you all know, I love Ryuki.

The thing i love about ryuki that i also love about any tokusatsu is teh strength of the characters. the will to continue. when they get knoced down, they get back up again and persevere.

the riders that i like generally have a positive atmosphere and a positive attitude.

I loved DEN-O for that reason. it was a very upbeat and positive series. It made me feel good to watch.

so perhaps when somebody like me comes along... perhaps I have no right to dictate what kamen rider is about?

because i can watch other shows to get what i enjoy. I get teh same feeling from tomica hero rescue fire. and from shinkenger. and from keitai sousakan 7. and other shows.

so if it ever came to a point of kamen rider changing to be mmore like the earlier series', perhaps i may not like it. but then that would mean that I am not really a kamen rider fan.

I would not mind if these shows were called metal hero .

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I like Kamen Rider as much as most heroes for their heroism. When I was young, I wasn't like any other kid just plain interested the SFX.etc. But I started to question the true definition of "heroism". Is it the Kung fu or superpowers that makes a hero a hero or is it something more? No one could answer my questions so I had to figure myself.

But Kamen Rider revealed the answer for me. Do note that in Singapore we never had Japanese Kamen Rider at all. Except in back alley DVD shops. So I was exposed to Saban's propaganda version of Black RX. I realised that I liked heroes not for their powers but for what's within. Determination, self sacrifice, justice and more. We are seeing less of those themes in Rider today. And also heroes becoming too attached to a K-Touch or a Zanbat sword whenever a stronger opponent arises. Just wondering why couldn't they like past heroes just rely on what they had to defeat a certain enemy. They are just hollow shells bearing the name of Kamen Rider but lack the inner strength of their forefathers... If their precious weapon is taken from them, they will fall apart very easily

I am not against power ups or anything. But if they have to get a power up or upgrade, it sounds more heroic to earn them through your efforts rather than they just pop out of nowhere.

"......... You have fought for Optimus, our last descendant with courage and with sacrifice; the virtues of a leader. A leader worthy of our secret, the Matrix of leadership is not found, it is earned. ......"

Original Primes to Sam Witwicky

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen

Edited by Tales

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A true testiment of a quote. It is also something I'm trying to do with my KR fanfic Riders. they have to discover something about themselves which will enable them to advance to their next level of power.

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I also seem to notice another big difference between the Showa Riders and Heisei Riders. The story in the Showa Riders were mostly driven by tragedy, while the Heisei Riders are more of a struggle driven story.

Well Kiva is a child born from tragedy. Agito had his Agito seed awokened which made him a target for the Lord of Light's darker brother. Ryuki is very much a victim of circumstances

but foolishly stuck to an ideal that also killed him in the end

. Faiz is also a being of tragedy, forced to come between human and monster.

But either way, Kamen Rider basically still the same but it's the way stories are written and expressed in the art form that irks many fans since Den-O.

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Another thing is that Toei still thinks that people are lacking of common sense and put some plotholes or things that are illogical.

Like in Kiva,

How is it possible that the population is currently unaware of Fangires in broad daylight. I think no matter of cover up can cover up the fact that there are monsters in the city. Also this is in 1986 and 2008. there is something called news and newpapers In 2008, there is the internet. If a monster was attacking in broad daylight, everyone would know and may not be able keep mum about it not to mention ignore it. And how come the police or government ain't doing anything and instead our last frontline in the defense against Fangires is a privately owned Blue Sky Organization which had so few members that often go to some cafe and not be able to do anything for the past 20 episode to kill Fangires.

As for me and some others, one thing that didn't sit right with us is the fact that Wataru went back in time!. To me, Wataru is a real coward who doesn't face up to reality. A true hero faces reality even when his true love is dead.

I feel that the atmosphere in Kiva is dark but not dark enough I think. Example, the people seem suspicious ignorant of Fangires even when they are in broad daylight sucking the life out of people. Why ain't the police doing anything? Why the press is so quiet about it? If Blue Sky is working with the police to keep in out of public eye then I am convinced but no sign of that anywhere.

Also the villains seem suspiciously lay back for a race set out to harvest humans as food or compared with real vampires in Blade or Buffy. They are also very very disorganized and loose. Like say, if they shown me that the Checkmate 4 had an army of Fangires at their disposal maybe I would believe so. That goes back to Blue Sky problems too.

Edited by Tales

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Whoa Tales, I can feel the hot bloodedness in your post. You really do have some serious issues with the modern Riders. It's true what you said about Kiva, obvious plot holes and inconsistencies does surround the show. But let's not use Kiva as a comparison as we all know how Toei failed in developing Kiva. But there are still some saving grace among the Heisei Riders, like Kabuto and Blade.

*looks at topic*

Okay, forget I mentioned that since we're discussing riders after Den-O. I have not seen Den-O yet, but with the numerous Den-O movies out, only two things will come to my mind. 1) Den-O is so popular that producers decide to create more movies to milk the franchise, or 2) the movie is a fail and they try to redeem the franchise to improve their sales. So I really can't comment on Den-O. With Kiva, as I mentioned, its a failed rider. With Decade, at least somehow they did something that would get new fans hooked. You have to admit, traveling to different rider worlds is a cool idea. But like I mentioned in the other thread, the story needs to develop. And with only a few episodes left, I beginning to wonder if there's any real plot at all in Decade.

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Really I am hot blooded? I just mentioned those aspects were the flaws that made Kiva fall apart. And guess what the opinion that "Kamen Rider is for kids" is not going to work. Just to let you know, some of the aspects I pointed our in the previous reply. One of the points I mentioned was pointed out by my toku loving cousin who's only about 10 -11 years old. He too is disappointed by what Kamen Rider has been dishing out.

If even a kid can point out what's wrong, you can more or less tell that a show must have sucked big time.

But indeed, Decade is a representation of what Kamen Rider is now; Lost and attempting to find its new direction.

Edited by Tales

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I'm not sure about your reply, but just to be on a safe side, I did not mean any offense by using the term hot blood. I meant that you were passionate about many points that make the modern riders fail.

But anyway. yes I do remember your posts about your cousin criticizing Kiva. Kiva didn't really made any impact on me, and I'm on the verge of losing my patience with decade. But hopefully with W, they can manage to redeem themselves. With a simpler design on the rider, they could concentrate more on story telling.

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Lets hope so.... if not I suppose there might be a way to get Toei's attention.

-----------------------------------------------

But I think there might be a way to make Toei or Ishinomori Productions to get back their old Rider spirit and better writing and perhaps to care about Super Sentai or Kamen Rider.

Based on what I know, after Godzilla versus Destroyah. Toho planned to retire the Big G[Godzilla]. But then in 1998, the US made a terrible job out of their beloved nuclear-powered lizard. So Toho got serious and decided to do a good job on their . This showed that Toho actually cared about Godzilla otherwise they would not make Godzilla even better than before.

And also I am thankful for the admin of this forum for giving us, old gen fans a refuge from the flame wars outside.

Perhaps all it takes for Toei to get Rider back in line is for an American Company to screw up it's American adaptation?

Toei might also get its act up if also the American adaptation turns out to be better than their own version since Toei will natually try and out do them

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